| |
Emma returns to share her thoughts on using the term pedophile vs. MAP. We discuss some of the controversy around both terms as well as the importance of using accurate labels. We also discuss the reality that males, females, transgender, non-binary individuals can have attractions to children but be committed to never harming a child. CANDICE:
Hi everybody! Welcome to another Prevention Podcast. Today I have a returned guest, which I'm really excited about. And her answers are actually going to be read, and you guys know Elliott, so they're going to be read by Elliott who's also a minor attracted person. Before I introduce Elliott, because I also think he deserves an introduction, I just want to say a little bit about Emma.
So Emma is a human being and is an incredible individual who also identifies as a female who is an anti-contact pedophile. And I've had her on before because I wanted the world to know that the assumption that individuals who have an attraction to minors, including children, are not always male. In fact, some identify as non-binary, some identify as transgender. So I'm really excited to have Emma's answers today to some of the questions that I had for her, as read by Elliott.
So Elliott, welcome!
ELLIOTT: Thanks for having me back! And again, just like I said with Bly's answers, I am more than happy to read these for them because I want to get the proper information out there to everyone so...
CANDICE:
Well I think that's just an invitation to others, right? So if there're other individuals who identify as non-offending, anti-contact minor attracted individuals who want to share information out there in the world about them but are scared, Elliott is happy to read for you/ to read your answers for you so...
On that note, let's go ahead and get started.
Today's topic, we're really looking at how do individuals who have attraction to minors identify. And so, you know, one of the things that I put out there into the world and Emma so graciously responded was : during the 2019 ATSA conference, there were ongoing questions among global researchers about how pedophiles identify. Do they believe it's a sexual orientation? Born with pedophilia? Do they believe it's a choice? Is it a little bit of both? Is it nature and nurture for instance?
We know with the research that there are biological underpinnings to pedophilia. I've said that many many times before. But with that said, my first question to Emma was : How do you identify related to your attractions? For instance, do you say "I'm a pedophile" or do you say "I'm a MAP"?
EMMA:
Ok, I don't typically say either out-loud, but I generally think of myself as a pedophile. It was during the early 2000's that I first came to term with my sexuality and I don't remember anyone using the term ‘MAP' at the time. Well, I use the term when I hear others using it. I gravitate more towards ‘Pedophile' not only because it describes the scope of my attractions more accurately, meaning I'm attracted to prepubescent children, not adolescents or older, but also because I want to be able to say the big scary word and own it.
CANDICE:
I think it is more accurate. James Cantor, Dr. James Cantor to say his name respectfully and properly because he is a leading researcher on pedophilia around the world, talks about how we need to use the term pedophilia in the research because we are accurately determining an attraction to a specific age range and body type. And so, I appreciate Emma's answer on that.
So, second question is : Do you believe that pedophilia is a sexual orientation or no? And if so, why? If not, why? Is this important to distinguish?
EMMA:
I believe it's absolutely a part of a person's overall sexual orientation. There are those who insists that sexual orientation refers specifically to gender and nothing else. But I don't understand the logic behind that thinking and feel it's based more on politics than science. Pedophilia describes a pattern of unchosen, ongoing sexual and romantic attractions towards a particular group and I certainly consider that to be a sexual orientation. Gender is one spectrum for attraction, age is another. In the case of pedophiles, I feel that being attracted to children constitutes the more defining element of our sexuality. Being attracted to girls rather than boys doesn't play a huge role in how I live my life or perceive myself. Being attracted to children rather than adults absolutely does. I've heard pedophilia both described as a sexual orientation or a psychological disorder. I personally don't see the two as having to be mutually exclusive. There's no reason why a sexual orientation can't be disordered. I've never heard "healthy and functional" used as one of the criteria necessary to qualify as a sexual orientation.
I don't think of my sexuality as being healthy because it can't lead to a mutually beneficial and enjoyable relationship. But that doesn't disqualify it as a sexuality.
It certainly not out of choice. There's nothing cool or glamorous about it.
If I were fifteen and given the option to choose any sexuality, it certainly wouldn't be this one. In fact, I tried choosing not to be a pedophile quite often and it isn't working.
CANDICE:
Well, I really appreciate you saying that, Emma, because so many individuals who identify as being pedophiles say the exact same thing. That they wish they could wake up and have it be gone. That they could have an attraction to an adult. That this is something that they never chose. It's truly unchosen. Again, in the research, we hear that all the time as well. And, again, we are seeing more and more the biological underpinnings related to it. And so, it's so important for our world to be able to hear and understand that : here are human beings, who are born with this attraction. And again, Emma you are saying it's not some glamorous thing. It's not something that's like ‘oh, I'm so excited to, you know, be a pedophile, be attracted to children". No, it truly feels like a life's sentence for many. And so, I just really appreciate you saying that Emma.
Do you believe that one's experiences can impact their sexual attraction to others?
EMMA:
I'm sure that they do. For me personally, I can't think of any events or series of events that might have lead to my attraction to children. However, to some degree, I can feel a trace for one or two of my other deeply engrained philias or fetishes to specific events. It's impossible to say exactly how much of anything comes from nature vs nurture. Some pedophiles strongly feel that their experiences, being sexually abused as children, played a role on how their sexuality developed. And I can't refute that. I have no such abuse in my history and think, in my case, it just must have something to do with how my brain is wired. I theorize that perhaps some people are born with crossed wires while others are born with loose wires. For those with loose wires, perhaps traumatic events, such as childhood abuse, can knock those wires out of place. So, they are more likely to develop atypical sexualities. Who can say?
Certainly, the majority of sexually abuse children don't grow up to be pedophile and many pedophiles were not abuse. So it's certainly not as straight forward as that.
CANDICE:
Well, I agree. I think, I know at the Global Prevention Project we take a bio-psycho-social approach when we are looking at individuals who are coming to our program who identify as being attracted to infants, you know, prepubescent children, pubescent children and post-pubescent children. And so a psychological component might be... and we've had this. We've had an individual on, I believe it was our first year on our podcast. I think pseudonym was Dillon and he talked about how mom died at 10, and they couldn't talk about her death. And as he got older, he found himself attracted to 10 year old boys. And, he was able to say, yeah, through trauma therapy and working through that, his attraction actually changed from feeling sexually attracted to children, 10 year old boys, to feeling emotionally attracted. And so... But that's one person. So, yeah! I just appreciate your answer and I... we have found in our work with folks that there seem to be this bio-psycho-social component.
So, you know, we are talking about the term pedophile. We're talking about the term minor attracted person, which that really is an umbrella term. If people go to our website, theglobalpreventionproject.org, we talk about that, I believe that that was started by B4U-act, to be an umbrella term. And, with that, what are your thoughts regarding using the term MAP?
EMMA:
I think it's funny. It lends itself to puns and inside jokes considering that ‘maps' is a common word in the English language. I'm a terrible MAP because I have no sense of direction.
Other than that, I think the term serves two purposes. One is to have an easy term to refer to pedophile, hebophile, ephebophile, all under the same umbrella. And the other is an attempt to destigmatize.
A lot of people hear the word "pedophile" and immediately think "child molelster". The term "map" doesn't have the same negative association and so it gives us an opportunity to start from scratch to introduce others to the idea of minor attraction without the immediate stigma that comes with the word "pedophile". I've heard detractors claimed the term "map" as an attempt to sugar coat pedophilia and rebrand it as something else. I don't exactly think they are wrong but also, can you really blame us when those people think the medical term for our sexuality is a synonym for a horrific crime? I personally prefer to educate others what pedophilia actually means and, as I mentioned before, as an attempt to own the word. But "map" doesn't bother me.
CANDICE:
Well again, I love that we are getting the opinion from someone who is a female and identify as an anti-contact pedophile. I mean I think that's... this is just great information. You know we... A few years ago, everyone knows the story, we had death treats and stories came out that were lying about us and now someone message me on Twitter saying that Australia picked up the story again and is just uneducated. And so, there's this idea that, you know, if we are talking about this umbrella term so that we can accurately define pedophilia from ephebophilia from hebophilia and so on and so forth, that we're trying to rebrand it or soften it or that we are pedo-apologist and that's just... it's not true! We're not sugar-coating anything. What we are saying, and I love how dr. James Cantor says this in all of his interviews, having an attraction is very different from action. Just because someone has an attraction to a child, for instance, does not mean they're an automatic child molester. And so, you know, I know for us, we are not using "map" as a way to soften the term at all. It's truly an umbrella term. And I think a lot of people get scared by what they don't know, and I think a lot of people are ignorant. And when it comes to this topic, I actually think a lot of people would like to remain ignorant. Because I think there's comfort in that in some way. But the reality is, and the global community needs to swallow this pill, there are people that have attractions that others may find distasteful, others may not agree with. And, okay, that doesn't have to mean anything. It doesn't have to mean anything so... Thank you Elliott for allowing me to get on my soapbox for a minute about that.
ELLIOTT:
I think you said my name. You want to say that again with Emma's name or...
CANDICE:
Well no! I wanted to say that to you.
ELLIOTT:
OK.
CANDICE:
Because I just went on my soapbox with you! As you are right here *laughs* so, you're the one ready for Emma so I just wanted to say thank you for letting me do that. But again, Elliott, thank for letting me get on my soapbox.
So as a female pedophile who helped us launch our podcast and I can't thank you enough for that Emma, what are some specific things that you want the world to remember about females who have pedophilia since the assumption out there is still that only males are pedophiles?
EMMA:
Thank you again for having me on your first podcast. I still feel honored by that.
More than anything, I want people to understand that female pedophiles do exists. I don't know what the exact statistic are, or if there're even reliable statistics at this time, but I've heard that, as few as 1% of men are pedophiles and that as few as 1% of pedophiles are woman. I've read that female pedophiles are irrelevantly rare and that some researchers are unsure if pedophilia ever truly occurs in women at all. I confess that to this day, this still messes with my head. How can I be 1% of 1%? What if my brain is tricking me into thinking I'm something I'm not?
The last though makes no sense since I started noticing my attraction before ever hearing the word pedophile, and certainly before researching it. More than anything, the apparent rarity of pedophilia in women makes me want to be studied. I want to understand on a scientific level why my brain is wired in a way that is so absurdly atypical in those of my sex. But I doubt I'll ever get a solid answer, even if I do get to play lab rat one day. The human brain is a complicated creature. In the mean time, I've met and befriended other female pedophiles online and knowing that they feel much the same as I do is comforting. I think we are probably not as rare as the research currently estimates.
CANDICE:
Well I would agree with that. We've had individuals, who identify as being female and have pedophilia and have no intention in acting on their attraction, come forward. I think the reality though is so much research has been done on individuals who are convicted sex offenders and identify as being pedophiles and they're males. And so it's great that, you know, Jill Levenson is coming out with more and more research on how can we break through the stigma of treating individuals who have minor attractions who are not convicted sex offenders. I think Prevention Project Dunkelfeld has done an excellent job at researching through different brain studies what is going on in the brain of individuals with pedophilia. As well as doctor Guillian Thenburgen who I've had the pleasure of collaborating with at [suny 16:47] to replicate our treatment program with minor attracted persons. So, I agree 100% with you Emma. I think there are more than 1% of 1% who identify as being female and who are pedophiles. It's just a matter of will they come forward to be researched.
So, any updates in your life since we've talk to you two years ago? Now three pretty much.
EMMA:
I can't believe it's been that long! I've done quite a lot and I really wish I could be more forthcoming about all the interesting project I have going on. But to do that would be to reveal my identity. And while there is a part of me that really hates to do that, I am much too scared at this point in my life. It's unfortunate because I think the MAP community could appreciate and relate to some of the curent aid of work that I do. And I feel unable to share with them.
CANDICE:
Well, I cannot imagine how that would feel. To feel like you can't come out and share what you're doing in your work because you identify as being a pedophile and so many people grab onto that and focus on that. What I like to say too is that first and foremost, you are a human being and, you know... Elliott I'll actually talk to you for a minute because your mom said this on her podcast that, you know, we forget that. It's like you're so much more than your attraction. I loved how your mom said that Elliott. I'm bringing you into this again but, you know, we're human beings... I'm not a minor attracted person, I'm not a pedophile and everybody is a human being on earth. We're not talking about aliens here folks. And so, there're so many more things that make up a person besides their specific attraction. And, believe it or not, I mean if folks read a billion wicked thoughts, people have a lot of different fantasies, arousal templates and attractions. It's just we live in a society that hides that and so, I agree with you Emma. I wish you could share more about the creative endeavours that you are doing as well.
So Emma do you have any advice for teens who are starting to recognize that they have an attraction to children but are scared and have no one to turn to?
EMMA:
That's tricky! I advise them to seek online support groups, specifically catering to teenage MAPs who want to remain non-offending. I know there are a few. Speaking to a parent, friend or therapist can certainly also be helpful but I've heard horror stories about things going bad. Therapist reporting patients for confessing to fantasies. A parents kicking their child out. I myself have lost friends for coming out to them. It can be very difficult to know who to trust but I think it's important to find someone to talk to even if it is just one person. Otherwise, it really starts eating away at you. I would tell teens to always be wary online. There are people who have nefarious intentions who might want to out you, exploit you or introduce you to illegal material. But you can also end up making friendships that save your life.
CANDICE:
Well yeah. I think we have this tidal wave coming in the global community where everyone is going to have to accept that there are really... in reality, there are teenagers who identify as having attractions to children. And I get that parents might want to say "it's a phase, you'll grow out of it". And those teenagers need your support and they need you to listen to them as parents. And so I wanted to ask that of Emma because I am starting to ask that from a lot of folks that I interview. This is a reality. I know that there are more support groups coming out there for teenagers who identify as having attractions to children and now, it is up to the global community to, again, swallow that pill. And then we get to have researchers figure out what does this mean. What does it mean when we thought it was this man down by the river who is attracted to children and we are finding out that there are cisgender, transgender, non-binary adults, and now we have teenagers saying the same thing. I think it's gonna blow not only the research community out of the water, but also I just think our global community too.
So, as we wrap up for today Emma, is there anything else you would like to share with the global community?
EMMA:
Thank you for having me back on the show. It's been amazing to watch this podcast, as well as your organization, as it grows and takes on momentum. And thank you Elliott to be willing to share my words. Maybe I'll be brave enough to come on one day using my own voice.
ELLIOTT:
You are welcome Emma, I am more than happy to do it.
CANDICE:
Yeah very kind of you Elliott!
Emma, thank you so, so much for being so brave to come on our podcast again and again. You helped us launch our very first one and it's just taken off. So we are so appreciative to you.
And again, Elliott... Elliott let me ask you. I'm just really curious. You're reading for people who are afraid that their voice will get them identified. Why, for you, is that not a fear to speak out and use your voice?
ELLIOTT:
You know, I just got to the point where I was tired of being quiet, I was tired of not letting people hear my story or other people's story. And I... my opinion is : if someone recognizes my voice that means they had to show an interest in searching about minor attraction to begin with. And if they confront me about it, I feel it can lead to a positive interaction and maybe help educated them more.
CANDICE:
Well yeah, like you said, they might also have a minor attraction, right?
ELLIOTT:
Yeah!
CANDICE:
So for those of you listening, again, Elliott is on Twitter. Do you want to give your Twitter handle?
ELLIOTT:
Sure. It's nomap_elliott.
CANDICE:
Great! Yeah, so if you're a minor attracted person and you want your story shared and you want Elliott to read, reach out to him. You can direct message him. And if you want to share your story on our website as a blog, we have a MAP blog as well and we would love to have folks share their story. And I know Elliott, you've done that for us before, is that correct?
ELLIOTT:
Yeah.
CANDICE:
Yeah, Elliott story's on there as well.
All right everyone! Thank you Emma and thank you Elliott so much again for coming off on our podcast today.
ELLIOTT:
Definitely, I'm always happy to talk to you.
CANDICE:
Awesome, and until next time everybody!
| |
