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5 of 6: Anywhere that CP is discussed, no one talks about how they stopped viewing it. Now someone has. This item is part of a special series of posts. A six-part series on child pornography and artificial child pornography, aka drawings, stories, etc. This series covers:
1. The morality of child pornography (this post).
2. The morality of artificial child pornography.
3. To the best of our data, what effect do both of those have on offending?
4. A story from someone recently arrested for possession of child pornography: how he got into it, how it affected his life, what happened next.
5. Two former users of child pornography talk about how they stopped viewing it, and their feelings now that they're off of it.
6. My own experiences with artificial child pornography and the role it's played in my life. This article is the fifth in the series. We talk a lot about people who view child pornography, and I talk sometimes about the people who don't, such as myself. What we almost never talk about is how people stop viewing child pornography. In fact, there's just about nowhere you can go to hear about people who successfully gave it up.
Over a year ago now, I befriended someone in a chat room for non-offending pedophiles. (That friendship came about, in part, because he was an economics major in college and I made a joke about the sunk cost fallacy. Nerd stuff!) This young pedophile, let's call him Alan, later told me that he and another friend, whom I'll refer to as Gary, were viewers of child pornography and trying to stop.
I started talking to them occasionally. I tried to give them more perspective and present a positive role model who doesn't look at CP. It was a big struggle; viewing CP was a force of habit, maybe even an addiction, and beyond that there were friendships and communities built around it. There have been ups and downs, but by and large, they've both been clean for a while now.
One of the big struggles they mentioned was having zero role models. You're not allowed to talk about viewing CP in most chat rooms for non-offenders, because then you are admitting a crime. Anywhere that CP is viewed, no one talks about how they stopped viewing it. In other words, there are no guides and there are no role models. You're all alone, and you can't even bring it up.
This is my attempt to fix that.
I want to acknowledge up front that these two guys committed a major crime. They're not from the US, and in fact I don't know what country they're from. But you might be asking yourself, if they're criminals, should they be on this stage?
I've already discussed that while I think viewing child pornography is and should be a crime, the punishment often feels much more severe than is warranted. (I don't wonder about producing it, which should be punished extremely harshly.) But regardless of your point of view, I consider giving it up to be really admirable, and I hope we can all see the importance of showing anyone who uses CP a way out.
With that, let's go into the chat. It is edited lightly for brevity, formatting, and grammar. I also removed side conversations and logistical notes.
Leonard:
Thank you both again for doing this. I know it's hard to open up, and I do hope it will be useful. Can we start at the beginning, and maybe you can both say when you first started using cp and how you found it?
Alan:
Hmm.. I was 15 or 16 when I found a russian image sharing site which had thousands of photos of all stripes, as well as a category for "kids". Obviously, it was a front, and the images were children in normal situations in varying states of nudity. Pictures alone, they looked like something from a family album.the comments section was where the secret community was hiding, often lewdly describing acts they would perform on the child featured, and occasionally, someone would link an obscure site that purportedly had CSAM (child sexual abuse media).
Note: Many people prefer the term CSAM, but from here on we'll use CP or "child pornography" for simplicity.
I clicked the link. It was an bulletin board style forum for sharing CSAM.
I can't say I stumbled across it. I was actively looking for these as a misguided, thrilling adventure of an edgy teenager.
It wasn't until a few weeks later when I found out that I was aroused by these images. I was initially horrified I was a pedophile, but my brilliant debate freak of a brain rationalized that I was still a minor, so being turned on by other minors was completely fine.
Gary:
This doesn't reflect well on me. I was around 16, I think. I was a curious teen. I went looking for 'no rule' groups on telegram. I wondered what people would do, and post. Someone DMed me a picture of a child in a sexual situation. I was really disgusted. 'This is really messed up.' I thought. So, I left the group, blocked the guy, and tried to forget it for a while.
A while later, a few weeks, maybe a month? I began to get curious about images like I'd been shown. They were still wrong, I knew that, but part of me wanted to see more of them. So, I did the stupid thing and went looking. Discord servers, telegram groups. Rarely ever found much, and when I did find it, I'd usually feel disgust again. But, over time, I realised that I was attracted to these images. And, well, it all went from there.
Leonard:
That's interesting, and it's not what I expected. It sounds like you found the images before feeling attraction to kids. Is that right? I was clearly attracted to kids before I went looking for shota. (Drawn images of underage boys in sexual situations.)
Gary:
I was interested in cub (furry shota/loli) at the time, but this was a whole new level for me. The attraction took a while to click.
Alan:
Oh, I was viewing shotacon way before I found CP, but it never felt real, just sexual. Sure, characters are depicted as children, but they're not real children, and the association between shotacon and real kids never found purchase on my mind.
Leonard:
That's so interesting. It's hard to imagine viewing shota and not thinking of it as sexual.
Are either of you attracted to adults or mostly to kids? It's hard to decipher what might've caused our sexualities, but what did you think your sexuality was before the images? What I'm trying to dig into is if you think they had a causal effect or if they were just how you discovered your attraction.
Gary:
I just viewed myself as attracted to adults. However, thinking back to when I was around ten or eleven, I was very curious about sexual stories involving very young kids. I didn't masturbate to them or anything like that. I just found them oddly enticing.
Alan:
I had crushes, with both my peers and a few adults (Anne Hathaway, Lady Gaga and Adam Young). I may have had crushes on children as well? But those feelings were hard to understand. My mother used to tell me that I was a deft hand at dealing with kids when I was 11 or 12, and looking back, it had some strange implications about how my relationships with younger kids, even way back when I was still a kid.
Similar to Gary, I found stories of younger teens and prepubescent boys discovering their sexualities interesting, but it never really clicked that I could he interested in them sexually.
Leonard:
So you're both non-exclusive, but it seems like that interest was there, and when you saw the images it clicked fully.
Gary:
Yeah, I'd say so.
Alan:
That would be accurate, though as of right now, I don't really have romantic interests.
Gary:
Ah, yes. I'm aromantic to kids. Not sure how I feel about that.
Leonard:
Aromatic but sexually attracted? That's me too, actually. I've never felt romantic towards anyone, never been in love. It makes me feel like I'm missing something important.
Alan:
Well, the most intense of my romantic attractions petered out after I ended up helping him date his crush. They're now in a happy relationship, and the guy thanks me for my help.
Not sure how to feel about it, but I'm happy he's happy.
Isn't this the very definition of SIMP? Who knows. I can't keep up with internet culture.
Gary:
In terms of adults, I haven't met anyone that's made me feel that way, yet, but I'm fairly certain I'm capable of it.
Leonard:
That's great. I'm jealous of that!
So... ok, you're 16, you're looking at cp, you're seeking it out. How did that feel? Did you feel guilty about it or think about it as wrong at the time? Or were your teenage minds not thinking about it at the time?
Gary:
Looking at those images did feel wrong, yeah. But it was a thought in the back of my head that maybe I should stop. I started to feel real guilt hits later down the line, however.
Alan:
The CP I found could be classified as a rank 7 on the copine scale. No adults, children with other children. I didn't really feel guilty about it, but I knew it was wrong for these videos to even exist, having just debated pornography laws a few weeks prior. Having experience in these similar situations helped convince me that I was.... misguided in feeling the guilt. It wasn't until I found something that involved adults and children in sexual activities when the full realization sunk in, and when the guilt started to manifest.
Leonard:
Alan, you don't have to answer this, but can I ask what you mean by having been involved in similar situations? It's just a big thing to drop in. I could also delete that sentence if you prefer.
Alan:
Ahhh,... Fair. I have had sexual activities with my peers when I was still a minor. We were both of the same age, and if anything, I was the one whom he convinced into doing it with him.
We could remove it if it's too big a thing to drop.
Leonard:
I think it's totally fine.
Alan:
Aight, a decent reminder that children as young as 9 need sex education
Leonard:
Ok, so you're viewing this stuff, and as a 16-year-old, you're justifying it to yourself. At first it's milder, then it builds up. When do you start to feel guilty about it, and how does that guilt manifest compared to, frankly, the thrill and sexual pleasure of watching it?
Alan:
I used to just ignore the guilt, coming up with ridiculously convoluted justifications which I immediately tore apart. I ended up just bottling it and ignoring it, telling myself that this is how I am, and nothing's going to change, so I might as well get used to the guilt and pain.
And sometimes, the thrill and short term pleasure of using CP was more than enough to delay the guilt that I feel, creating a catch-22 where I feel guilty about watching CP, so I'd watch it to drown out the guilt, then the guilt comes back, so in and so forth.
Gary:
I think once access to CP became easy was when it really hit me. I downloaded Tor at some point. The whole guilt/pleasure thing manifested in a thing I tend to call 'the cycle'. It goes like this:
At some point, I watch CP. It feels, well, amazing, honestly. But then, when I'm done, I feel... absolutely terrible. Guilty, angry at myself, angry at the guy who produced it. I usually end up deleting tor completely, and vowing to never watch it again. For a while, it works. 2 or 3 months pass. But, then, I'm overwhelmed by my urges to watch it again. This happened for one or 2 years, I think. But each time the 'guilty' period would get shorter, and shorter on average.
Note: Tor is a browser that provides significant anonymity. It is used for many legitimate purposes. It is also used for child pornography and other illegal material.
Leonard:
Got it. So Gary, when you were, like, 16, you were only viewing it every few months?
Gary:
Yeah.
Alan:
Similar to Gary, I had moments when the guilt felt too overwhelming, and I vowed to stop viewing CP. I'd shred everything, delete all files and software dedicated for finding CP. But due to the fact that it's ridiculously easy to find CP, even in the clear net, I would often relapse, and end up falling deeper in the depths of CP and its community.
Leonard:
So you basically both wanted to stop pretty early on. When did you identify it as a real problem for you?
Alan:
The night of my 18th birthday.
Part of my rationalization was that I'd grow out of my attractions to minors, and that I still feel attracted to my peers and other adults. But when I turned 18, i realized that it wasn't going away, and that this is something I'm stuck with, forever.
My initial thoughts went to security, making sure that all my incriminating files were hidden and encrypted. I didn't know that there were pedophiles that didn't use CP, and I wrongly assumed that all pedophiles use it, and are just clever about hiding it. At this point, I'd tried to stop myself twice, both of which ended in spectacular failures.
Gary:
Once I began to feel properly guilty, I realised that 'Hey, you're using CP, one of the most evil and illegal things out there. If you don't stop, your whole life is going to be ruined before long.' I just felt it was a matter of time before I was arrested.
The fear that some invisible force is closing in on you, and that every day could be the last one you see out of jail is terrifying. While, obviously, I felt guilt for the children in the CP, the sheer terror such thoughts produce is very motivating.
Leonard:
My sense is that it was actually pretty hard to stop. Before getting to that, one of the things you mentioned to me before was that there's a community of people who are friends, of a sort, who view cp. Yes, you got cp through websites, both on the normal web and on the dark web, but you also got it from chat rooms and made friends there. Is that right? Can you talk about what that community is like, and why those people were important to you? I feel like most people think "chat room of child porn traders" and don't think it's a pleasant place.
Gary:
That's correct. A lot of the people I used to trade with were often quite friendly. They're people I often built long term relationships with. They felt like people you could share an interest with, that you could with no one else. Even then, it wasn't all about kids. We shared hobbies, talked about our day. They're still people, even if I do view them as a bad influence now.
Alan:
Thing is, they're like your average community and chat rooms, with diverse opinions and viewpoints, the only exception here is that it's from the perspective of a pedophile. I remember a vivid debate about infant circumcision by a few nepiophiles which ended with both of them getting a temporary ban for a few hours to cool off. They also understand the frustration and how the urges feel, but most of them give in, and think it's hopeless.
Note: A "nepiophile" is a type pedophile who is attracted to toddlers or babies. This is also an attraction some people experience.
Leonard:
So it sounds like folks hanging out, chatting about stuff, and some of it happens to be their sexual interests which is what they have in common. Was it generally a friendly place? Were there people there where you were like, "these are cool people, who happen to be pedophiles?" And I guess related to that, did you make genuine friendships there?
Alan:
It is a friendly place, relative to the entire internet where being known as a pedophile would get you instantly banned. It's not just a place to find CP, it's what a lot of pedophiles use as support, despite how misguided this may seem, because talking about it with someone who knows how bad it feels, the guilt, the emotions, the vicious cycle, mad understands how horrible it feels is better than bottling up it all up. There's a tension you lose knowing you're not alone suffering these urges.
Should these places be dismantled? I can't answer that, I have too much emotional stake here, and there's no where else for people who use CP to find their peers to talk to, who understand the struggles. I met Gary through one of these groups, though I can't remember our 1st interaction.
Gary:
Adding to Alan's point, these less... controlled places often serve better as places to be accepted as a MAP, even, compared to places like MSC. Because, here, no one's going to judge you, or delete your message if you say that you struggle with CP use. Hell, a few might DM you, and try and help.
Note: "MAP" stands for "Minor-Attracted Person," and is a word some people prefer for those who are attracted to underage children, although I prefer being direct with "pedophile." MSC is "MAP Support Chat" and is a chat room for pedophiles who believe acting on their desires is wrong to talk to each other and support one-another.
Leonard:
That brings up a good point. Do you think most of the people on these sites would stop using CP if they could? I mean, obviously, in theory, they could just stop. What I mean is, imagine you got rid of the addictive factors, and the social pressure. It was just a trade off of "this is more sexually exciting to me than anything else" vs "this is immoral and illegal." Would most of them choose to stop if they could?
Gary:
I can't answer that, personally. I've met folks who were regretful, but I've also met folks who actively encouraged me to use it, even with the knowledge I felt guilty and wanted to stop. That said, a lot of people who feel guilty might not even bring it up. Could be far more than we know.
Alan:
Most of them? Probably not, but I have met a lot of people who regret having the urge, but think that using CP is inevitable. As Gary said, there are a few folks that actively encourage others to use it. There are also forums on the Tor network that discuss quitting CP, on the same forums what share them, so there's definitely a lot of people who would stop if they get the chance.
Leonard:
That's interesting. It can't be easy to admit "I don't want to do this" in a place where everyone is doing it. I'm surprised people say it publicly.
Gary:
They may feel a degree of anonymity, being on tor and such.
Alan:
Contrary, it is easier to admit it in these forums. There's a ton of folks there who understand how much the urges suck, and have thought of quitting before. There's also a veil of anonimity, so it's not quite as public as it seems.
Leonard:
That's really interesting. It's nice that people can at least talk about it. Maybe someone can link them to this chat later.
Ok, so let's get to the meat of it. You're part of this community, you have a habit of looking at cp, you have these urges that keep drawing you back in, but you've decided to quit. You finally did manage it, although I know you still struggle, but it sounds like there were a lot of false starts. What worked this time?
Alan:
Honestly, it's hard to pin down which factors helped, but I can pinpoint a few that definitely helped me.
Firstly, I had Gary. Seriously. He would be here when I was feeling a really bad urge, and he'd do the virtual equivalent of holding my hand and propping me up when I feel overwhelmed by my urges.
Secondly, I joined an online, experimental therapy. I could talk to professional therapists and psychiatrists about my attractions and addiction, and they helped me stop viewing it, one exercise at a time. The therapy is free, and anonymous, but it's an experimental study to develop a way to help people like us quit using CP.
I've been clean for 2 months, and it's been a painful struggle to reach this point.
Note: This chat was done quite a while ago, because it took me (Leonard) a long time to write all the posts in this series before this one! Alan has now been clean for over a year.
Gary:
I'm feeling the same as Alan, here.
I think Alan's been the biggest help. We've pulled each other back from the brink so many times now. I think it's really important that I can be honest with him, and that if I do mess up, he'll still be here, willing to help me try again.
I'm also in the process of this same therapy. I admit it's had less of an impact on me than Alan, but it's still a very helpful thing.
I've stopped counting how long I've been clean. I think it might be a month?
(Also, a thing I wrote but am unsure where to slot in: For those of you who want to try this yourself, I don't think you should provide any strict punishments for messing up. That would mean that you'd have incentive to lie to your partner, and that wouldn't work well.)
Leonard:
So doing it with someone seems important. They're like an accountability partner, someone you can go to when you're struggling. I remember there were times I talked to you while you were going clean where you really thought you wouldn't be able to make it. How did you get through that? How do you keep perspective?
Gary:
It's tough. And often times, it feels hopeless. Sure, you're clean today. But what about tomorrow? And the next day, and every single day until the end of your life?
You have to push past thoughts like that. I find that, as it goes on, it gets easier. There will be patches where you'll be feeling strong urges still, but on average, it's a lot easier to ignore the urges. The past few days have been shockingly low on unwanted thoughts.
I find that, if you feel like you're about to do something you'll regret, just stepping away from all your technology for a while is a good idea. Take a nap. And, if you ever feel at risk, tell your partner. They can be there for you, calm you down, pull you back from the brink.
Even if you feel like you're going to break every single day, just keep talking to your partner. Take it one day at a time. You'll find the burden a little easier each day.
Alan:
Hell, I still think that way sometimes. I've had these urges for so long, that now that they don't feel as powerful as they were before, I still fear that one day I'll break and succumb. But I picked this up somewhere that life is about pushing the crisis point further and further, and give me room to breathe and prepare for these crises points. So, say I manage to hold off that breaking point day to.... 3 years from now. That's a lot of time for me to breathe and find a way to even delay that, even if I think it's inevitable.
Understanding why I use CP was crucial as well. It's an unpleasant realization, but one that needs to be done before I could excise its influence in my life. As I stated before, it's a bad coping mechanism, similar to how drug addicts self medicate.
Time away from stimulation worked as well. Take a walk, force yourself to spend brain power over something other than your urges. Anything to distract yourself from the urge.
It's always going to be a fight. It's a fact that I will always be aroused by children being sexually abused, but I can make the choice to not use it anyways.
And if you have an accountability partner, it is always a good idea to talk to them when you feel overwhelmed.
Leonard:
Hold on, Alan, you said understanding the reason why you use CP. Can you explain that?
Alan:
Sure. Like most actions, there's always a need being addressed. You eat because you're hungry, you drink because you're thirsty. Normal people watch vanilla pornography to help them with their arousal and masturbate. All our actions are there to fill a need or a want. Part of quitting CP is understanding why you use it, and to try to fulfill the need using safer means. For nicotine addicts, there's gum and patches. For us, there's always drawn fictional material, written fictional material, or legal pictures of actual children.
Leonard:
I remember seeing a psychologist about my pedophilia once, and I talked about how sometimes I masturbated much more than other times. I always felt like it was based around boredom or random fluctuations in sexual desire, but he suggested there might be a component of depression in there. That honestly still doesn't feel right to me, but what do you think? Is there an association with, say, having other positive things in your life and being able to avoid CP as a result?
Alan:
I can't say that definitely, but I found that it definitely helps, as far as making me fear going to jail. (Hah)
Thing is, I see myself being relatively privileged, though not stupidly rich, wealthy and secure enough to live safely and comfortably. I have a life several hundred million people would be jealous of, yet I still used CP.
Leonard:
Let's talk nuts and bolts. Do you recommend going cold turkey, or phasing it out?
Alan:
Oh, we had recommendations to go cold turkey, but for someone who's in the deep, it's hard to think if it. Part of what we did was slowly go clean for longer and longer, as well as slowly shredding any material that we have. For some, phasing it out works for them, for some, the cold turkey worked. But, the 1st step here should be finding the motivation to stay clean. Either method won't really work if you don't think it's worth the sacrifice and pain of going clean.
Imagine having a deeply ingrained habit, one that you've had for several years, doing it everyday, then suddenly stopping it. Human will isn't that strong enough to stop that sort of momentum. At least, mine isn't.
Gary:
One important thing I'd add is that you need to talk to any contact you have that are sending you CP. You need to ask them to stop sending you it, and even refuse if you ask in a moment of weakness. Makes it a little harder to slip back.
Leonard:
Gary, you actually ended up deleting one of your chat accounts to stop being tempted by old friends, right?
Gary:
That I did. It was painful, but necessary.
Also, if the thought of shredding your cp horrifies you, it may be easier for you to create a two part password for your cp, and give one half to your partner. That way, you don't have the emotional task of deleting your cp, but don't have it on hand, you have to go through your partner.
If you're on the receiving end of this tactic, I wouldn't recommend deleting that password half without their permission. Though you will disable their access to cp, maintaining your trust in each other is very important.
Alan:
But with only half the password, it makes the emotional burden of deleting your CP much easier. A burden shared is a burden halved.
Gary:
Indeed.
Leonard:
Oh, that's a nice idea. I guess there's some amount of psychological trickery that's helpful.
Alan, I remember that you were phasing it out. First you stopped getting new CP, then you slowly deleted what you'd saved until you had nothing left. But it sounds like you're not saying that's best for everyone, and going cold turkey might be better for some people.
However, it sounds you found that replacing CP with fictional stories or artwork or innocent real pictures was helpful to stop viewing images of child sex abuse? Do you think that is a lesson others should take? (And I'll note here that the legality of such materials varies by where you live, so anyone trying this should be aware of that.)
Alan:
Yeah, check the local child pornography laws if they allow for those, but generally, these innocent images are usually fine, since they don't depict children in sexual activities.
Interesting note, there was a country in Asia that defines children as either real or fictional, as long as they look like children. Essentially making shota illegal.
But you need to find what method works for you, there's no silver bullet to this problem.
Leonard:
I feel like these are really helpful tips, and more importantly, we're telling people that yes, you can do this. I have just a few more questions, but before we move on, anything else you want to say to someone who wants to give up CP?
Gary:
Don't be discouraged if you mess up. We have. Just try again, you'll do better next time.
Alan:
Yeah, most people who use CP tend be hopeless about the situation, thinking that theyre permanently stuck to using CP. There's nothing we can do about the attraction, or the fact that we will always find media of children being sexually abused to be arousing, but we can stop ourselves from using said media.
And, as Uncle Iroh said, failure is a good chance to try again with more wisdom than when you started.
Leonard:
I want to take a step back now to the bigger picture. Gary, something you mentioned before is that it's hard to get support, because most communities of non-offending pedophiles forbid you from admitting illegal behavior that hasn't already been adjudicated. On the one hand, that makes sense: an admission like that would be reason for a police warrant and would force them to give over logs and information. (I only feel safe on this account because I don't have any data to track you down, and don't even know what country you're in except it's not mine.) On the other hand, it means there's no community you can go to for help. You can see a psychologist, maybe, but that's about it.
Any thoughts on what we could do to make it easier for people giving up CP on a broader level?
Gary:
Well, I think that having some anonymous way to discuss this is very important. People aren't going to talk about it if they're going to be reported. Communities on secure messaging platforms, like Telegram, allow people to talk more openly around such things. And, under such relatively anonymous circumstances, I believe community leaders should attempt to accommodate these people by providing a channel or group to talk about these feelings and ask for assistance.
Leonard:
Great, thank you both so much.
Some notes to wrap this up.
First of all, a huge thank you to Alan and Gary for taking the time to help out. I know I've already privately shared this chat with another person looking to give up CP, and he found it helpful. If you did, too, please [fill out the comment form](https://livingwithpedophilia.wordpress.com/contact/) and I can share your reply with them. They would appreciate it, as would I.
Secondly, Alan wanted to make sure I shared the research and support group that helped him out. Note that you will need Tor to follow that link.
Finally, if you're interested in MAP Support Club, which was mentioned in the interview, you can find out more about MSC here.
It's been over a year since my interview with Alan and Gary. We're still in touch, and they're still clean. If you are trying to stop viewing cp, know that others have done it and succeeded. Even if you never hear about them, you're not alone.
And if you don't share our attractions, I hope you've seen that there are real people struggling behind the statistics, even when it comes to crimes like viewing child pornography. This stuff, and how to genuinely change things, is more complex than it seems at first.
You can find the original article, along with reader comments (and the opportunity to leave your own) at Leonard's blog. | |
