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Elliott and Candice discuss what has changed for him in the past year since coming on our podcast for the first time, including how his relationship with his mother has changed, all the support he has received and his love for helping other MAPs in need. CANDICE:
Hi everybody! Welcome to the prevention podcast.
We are in the middle of a long pandemic and it’s not stopping our podcast, which is great. And we have an awesome individual, an awesome human being who has been on with us before. His name is Elliott and he is a MAP. Hi Elliott!
ELLIOTT:
Hi Candice, how are you doing?
CANDICE:
I’m doing pretty well considering that we’re all in this stay at home order. How are you?
ELLIOTT:
About the same, going a little stir crazy, well, not being able to get outside other than for a short walk every day, you know, kinda… gets to you after a while and the days starts blend in together, and yeah. If I didn’t have certains things to define each day, I would not know what day I was living in.
CANDICE:
Yeah! Join the club. I mean, I am right there with you and I think everyone around the world is going through that same process where it’s hard to get out of our pajamas, everyone is going stir crazy. I think there’s a lot more bickering, wether you live with a family member or you’re married and have kids. Just because everyone is in such close proximity. And there definitely is a sense of isolation which as a MAP, I am guessing, is similar to how you felt. So maybe we could start there and just talk about similarities that you are noticing when you were ‘‘in the closet’’ if you will, and had no support and felt very isolated, compared to what’s going on right now in the world with the pandemic.
ELLIOTT:
Well just even going back, when is it… thirteen years when I came out, like, the years previous that. Being by myself, keeping all those thoughts inside, it was terrible. I mean, I’m sure any other MAP listening to this can feel the same way. Like, you just… you feel a sense of, you know, living two lives. A life that you show everyone and also the life you are living inside your head. And it just… it eats at you everyday. You get depressed, you get, you know, sometimes suicidal. And you know, after I did come out, I did start therapy and had a few support groups I went to for sex addiction but I stil didn’t feel comfortable talking about my attraction, even there. And, so when I found the community a little bit over a year ago, back in Febuary 2019, it was just opening a whole new world. It has made my life so much better.
CANDICE:
I am so happy to hear that! And having you on today to talk about that really. What have you experience in the last year, what have change for you going from being completely isolated with no one to talk to, to reading for other MAPs on our podcast, to coming on our podcast with you and your mom, to interviewing with Meg, ensuring your story in that regard. There’s so much that happened for you in a year that I’m hopping that today’s podcast will inspire those isolated MAPs to know that there is support out there and they are not alone.
So maybe we can do that. Maybe we could reflect on what the last year has been like for you.
ELLIOTT:
Yeah well, when I did the first podcast for you with my mom, it was kind of funny like how I discover your podcast was actually by accident. I was seeing a therapist at the time and I wanted to let her know what ressources were out there for people who had minor attraction. And I knew of VirPed but I couldn’t think of B4U-ACT’s name. So I did a google search and the Prevention Podcast was actually one of the first thing that showed up. And I clicked on it and started listening and then my mom started listening and it helped our relation out a lot. She understood what I dealt with way better than she could ever.
But what was kind of funny, I was actually telling Meg this the other day, when I decided to come on, I almost initially though it was a catfishing scheme. Like it was going to be a to Catch A Predator thing where you were going to be the next Chris Hanson telling me to have a [5:24] *laughs* so
CANDICE:
*laughs* Well I’m happy that you can see and saw back then that we’re definitely not Chris Hanson. We’re not doing Catch a Predator, it’s not a fishing scam. We’re legit. We’re here for you. And I’m also pretty grateful. I think it’s pretty cool that we are one of the things that popped up. And that you and your mom were actually able to connect more. So before listening to the podcast, what was your relationship was with Mom? Did she know that you had an attraction to minors? What was the context of your relationship ?
ELLIOTT:
Yeah, I mean, she knew but, as with a lot of people, she didn’t understand it. She, I think a lot of time, conflated my attraction with my addiction and so she would always use the phrase ‘‘don’t feed your attraction’’ and I never understood that. Like, she would tell me, like, ‘‘when you are out in public, don’t look at boys’’ or ‘‘don’t do this’’ or whatever and I said ‘‘Mom, you know, my attractions always going to be there’’. And then we had some really drawn out arguments and some hurtful things were said… for her just trying to understand. But, you know, once she started hearing other people’s stories and some were a little more well spoken than I am, she was able to grasp the concept. And now, it’s crazy. Like, I can talk to her about pretty much anything and I don’t feel like I have to hide anything at all from her.
CANDICE:
I love that. And it gives me so much hope to hear you talk about your relationship with your mom cause I know that other MAPs who listens to this, or even family members that listen to this, go through that process too where they don’t understand. And so there’s automatically this assumption that ‘‘my child, no matter how old you are, is a child molester because they are attracted to younger’’ wether it’s children or even infants, pubescent teens or post-pubescent teens. And the reality is, just because you have an attraction does not mean you are destined to harm anybody. And so do you feel like today Mom is crystal clear on that?
ELLIOTT:
For the actual attraction part, yes I feel she is. I still feel there’s certain things she struggles with in understanding. And maybe because I struggle with understanding it myself, such as my age dysphoria and my age regression and the rest of development type things. Those are the things she still… yeah, have an issue in fully understanding and grasping. When I read… for Bly the other day, other podcast, some of the things discussed in that, she really has difficulty grasping the concept. But hopefully in time she’ll get to the point where she is now with my attraction.
CANDICE:
The podcast of Bly did that you read for was incredible. And that actually circulated on the ATSA listserv, David Prescott moderates that. He’s just been in the field for a long time. He is an awesome person and clinician, said, you know, ‘‘people should listen to this’’. And truly, I think for other clinicians, researchers and those individuals that works in the field of prevention, I think it blew them out of the water. So I can only imagine what that did for your mom, right? Because, again, we’re at a place in society where people can accept that we’re having conversation about individuals who have pedophilia, who have no intention of harming a child. These other concept, age dysphoria, age regression, age play, adult baby diaper fetish, I think that is taking some time for people to wrap their heads around. I personally loved that podcast because it was so educational. I just want to say kudos to your mom for hanging in there with you and continuing to try and understand. Wouldn’t you say?
ELLIOTT:
Yeah, definitely, I mean, even we recently listen to the one I read for Emma. And as with most people, you know, even as understanding as my mom is, she couldn’t grasp the concept that there could be a female pedophile out there. And after we got done listening to it, she didn’t even, like, you know, consider Emma anything but well spoken educated person. And you know, like, I’m glad my… reading up her words were able to capture that because I feel the same.
CANDICE:
Yeah! I just want to give a shout out to Emma. She is a badass human being and has to keep so much of her life private because of the stigma but she was the first individual human being that came to our podcast back in 2018 to help us launch and we did that because we wanted to blow the world out of the water with this understanding that individuals who have pedophilia are more than man *laugh*. So since then, you know, our program consists of minor attracted persons who identify as cisgender, transgender, non-binary and, again, I think the whole world is blown away by that. But so grateful that your mom and you, together, are going through this process. Do you think that you were… last year would have been harder for you if your mom was not a support to you?
ELLIOTT:
I think in the last year, definitely… I feel she definitely aided in how far I’ve come in the last year. I think that has she not been able or willing to listen to the podcast and, I think, I might have been able to… by listen to it myself, been able to express things a bit better to her. But I honestly don’t think that we would be in the same place that we are now if that wasn’t the case, that she wasn’t willing and open to hear it so, yeah, I’m grateful that she is. I wish more people in my family would be like her.
CANDICE:
Yeah, I know that you’ve said that with your brother, that’s been a point of contention in that you tow haven’t spoken in a while. Is that right?
ELLIOTT:
Yeah. As of this podcast recording, you know, we still… If I text him, like, he’ll respond but it’s, like, more like a one or two words type of thing and most of the time, it’s just he wants me to respect his wish to not speak with him. And, you know, I was talking to someone earlier, there’s definitely the tension between us and I wish were… it to be healed but, in some ways too, he puts me into a tough predicament because some of the friends that we’ve had since childhood, because I associate with them still, he’s choosing to cut contact with them as well. And I’m left trying to explain to them the reason without giving away, you know, anything about my attraction which always puts me in a difficult spot.
CANDICE:
Yeah, well that would be hard. And again, these are the dynamics that a lot of individuals who have minor attractions also experience where they feel isolated, they don’t feel like they can share of those in their family perhaps that they trusted. They may have gotten ostracize, judge or attacked even.
What advice do you have for those folks out there who are listening who haven’t felt safe enough to find a community like you have, what are some things perhaps some steps they could take, even initial steps to get some support so they are not so alone. Especially right now when we are all in our homes.
ELLIOTT:
For me right now I would say, you know, I joined the community through Twitter because I responded to some of the comments that were being made about the first podcast that I did with Mom and I. And I met some wonderful, great people through Twitter. But Twitter is always a minefield finding those who you can trust, those who are gonna be the stereotypical anti-people. And so, especially right now during this quarantine process, I personally, if I was a MAP looking for resources, I would hopefully try to find something like you guys, The Global Prevention Project, and like the MAP support group that you offer, do VirPed, B4U-ACT. I know there’s a MSC chat room which I try to participate in but I’m not one for chat. But yeah, right now at least with the dynamics of how everyone is feeling, I wouldn’t use Twitter which is unfortunate cause if it wasn’t for Twitter, I wouldn’t be here so…
CANDICE:
For those of you who are listening that are on Twitter, our handle is @preventionintvn. You can direct message me and I can also repeat the resources that Elliott just shared. Our website is The Global Prevention Project . Org. He talked about B4U-ACT. He talked about VirPed. And, MC… say the support chat?
ELLIOTT:
It’s MAP Support Chat. It’s MSC.
CANDICE:
MSC yeah. It’s new.
And MAP support chat, let’s talk about that for a minute because… Did that one start to support, not just adult MAPs but also teens?
ELLIOTT:
Yes I think it was, from my understanding was, Ender, which I still to this date wish I got to meet, or at least talk to, because VirPed has an 18 and older stance, he wanted to have something for teens. So I think he joined up with one or two other people from VirPed and started the chat. And it was pretty secretive for a while. There was a big huge invite process which I can fully understand. They were trying to vet people so they didn’t get the trolls involved. But I know recently they wanted to open it up more so teen MAPs could have that ressource.
CANDICE:
Do you… Maybe this is an inappropriate platform, but for those teens listening, is there a way, is there a contact. I know TNF is an awesome resource with his website. Would he be a contact that would be good on Twitter if someone’s interested?
ELLIOTT:
Yeah definitely think TNF would probably be the best route. I know he is one of the major moderator on there.
CANDICE:
Ok wonderful! So yeah, folks can DM me on Twitter if you are on Twitter and you want some more information. There are some awesome, safe communities out there of individuals who have minor attractions for individuals who have minor attractions, wether you are a teen or an adult, where you can get support. These are anti-contact non-offending communities meaning their stance is to not cause harm to a child. I do know that in the pro-contact community, that’s not really my platform so I’m gonna do my best, but many also are against harming a child. They just have a different belief about what that looks like. So we stay in the area, on the platform, of anti-contact but I know that everybody needs support so these are different forums for folks who identify as having a minor attraction and want a safe place where they can get support.
And Elliott, let’s educate the global community because when we say ‘‘support’’ sometimes haters and trolls will come out and say that by saying ‘’support’’, we are promoting child abuse.
ELLIOTT:
Yeah, that’s definitely not what it is. I mean, for me, you know, I have a few friends I… mostly use the platform Telegram on, I really like that platform. It works the best on my phone. But we… there’s one chat room I belong into with two other MAPs. We are in constant support for each other. Like, the other day, one of my friends in that chat was in what I like to call a ‘‘shame spiral’’ and, you know, the typical ‘what’s the point’’ type of thinking. And through just various things that I’ve said, I was able to help them get out of that and realize that he is a good person and that his attraction is just a part of them, you know. I always use this… what my therapist years ago said is, you know, attraction is there but it is just a part of you and you get to decide how much it is, how much it affects you. And that has always stuck with me.
CANDICE:
Well, I am really grateful that you had a therapist that was willing to support you. Because I think… I think there’s a change happening where, through education, they are therapists who are coming forward saying ‘‘Hey, I am willing to work with an individual with a minor attractions and not be judgmental’’. But I do think the majority of clinicians based on their own history, their own bias, do still have a negative perception and don’t actually believe that someone can be a pedophile for instance, and not be a child molester. So I am grateful that you found a therapist. What is/ Oh! Go ahead.
ELLIOTT:
I have a… one I currently am talking to now that has helped me a lot, especially to deal with this quarantine thing. But we also talked about minor attraction related issues. His website even had a section on there about minor attraction and his view points, and how he works with us. And, you know, that was definitely something that made me really be able to trust him from the get go which is definitely important.
CANDICE:
I agree. And, how did you come across him? For those listening that are looking for a therapist that’s safe.
ELLIOTT:
Well, B4U-ACT has a section on their website where you can email someone to get a list of therapist that might be in your area. Unfortunately where I lived there was no one directly but there are some people who, because of their licenses can work, you know, teleconference-virtual type of thing. Especially during this quarantine process, that has help because, you know, I video chat with my therapist and it’s like we’re in the same room. It feels like it’s a regular session so…
CANDICE:
I agree with you. I think that tele-help has been amazing and I know on the ATSA listserv if someone reaches out to our project that needs an individual therapist in a different state, all email that list serve and then, if they are MAP friendly therapist, they’ll respond witch is really great too. So folks can reach out to me through Twitter or Candice @ The Global Prevention Project . Org if you are looking for ressource. And then we also have a group where, you know that Elliott had mention me, we got 2 therapist lead. And so, that’s really nice even though it’s a psycho-educational support group, it’s still lead by a therapist. There’s a lens coming from a, you know, clinical perspective. The peer support chats are also incredibly helpful for a lot of folks so… I just want to make sure that folks who are listening know that they’re not alone. If you are a minor attracted person, wether you’re a pedophile or a hebophile or pedo-hebophile, or ephebophile, you are not alone. There is support out there, especially during this pandemic. And probably when this airs, hopefully, when this airs, we won’t still be in a stay-at-home position and then people can reflect on ‘‘Wow, that was such an incredible trying time’’. And hopefully, people can still hear this as a message of hope that, for you Elliott, looking back to last year, compare to now, you’ve seen like a totally different person.
ELLIOTT:
Yeah, I occasionally will go back to listen that very first podcast we did and I just feel like I sounded so green and innocent type of thing *laugh* I don’t know if it’s the right word but, like, it showed that I hadn’t gotten involve in the community yet and that I was still in desperate need of help and support. And, like, compared to now and… you mentioned about teens and all that stuff, I participated in this monthly call through B4U-ACT where there’s MAPs and therapists call in and just discussed a subject. And one particular month, one of the therapist mentioned that because of the research paper that she did and, it was, I guess, available to search ward on google or something, this twelve year old boy contacted her through her website looking for help about his attraction. And that just blew my mind in how far it’s come that… me as a twelve year old did not have that resource at all and I… my previous podcast I talked about it as well, the blog that I wrote for you, I went down a pretty dark path because I didn’t have that source. And to know that a twelve year old felt confortable enough to contact someone is amazing to me.
CANDICE:
I agree and I so believe in prevention. And that’s our platform, we talked about that. But when we talk about prevention, we’re talking about preventing self-harm as much as other harm and when we focus on people’s well being and we address mental health issues, prevention is a natural by-product which is incredible. You know, I liking it if you got physical health problems and you follow your doctors recommendations to take care of yourself and to eat right and to exercise and to follow this prescription, if you will, to stay healthy. There’s a natural prevention that occurs, you know, you feel better, you're hearth is stronger, you live longer. But if you don’t they can be definite factors that create harm for you. And it also impact your family. And so I think similarly, when we focus on human being’s mental health, regardless of what their attraction is, because everyone has mental health issues, especially right now, we are naturally impacting prevention. We’re taking mesure that will help to prevent suicide, you know, wether it’s a teen that’s reaching out or an adult. And isolation can be dangerous. It can be dangerous. People’s thoughts sometimes can take them to really dark places. And so, I’m just really grateful that a twelve year old is reaching out and I hope more teenagers are willing to reach out to say ‘‘I need help! This is going on with me and I need some support and I need some help’’ so that we can prevent youth suicide just like I hope that adults continue to reach out because I do think too many adults die by suicide because they feel so alone. What are your thoughts?
ELLIOTT:
Definitely, I mean… I’ve had some suicidal ideation in the past. I actually recently went through an experience right before the quarantine started. That is what led me to finally seek help. And it was actually both my friends in the chat I was mentioned plus someone I consider a friend but is an ally to the whole MAP community, it’s Sheila. She really saw that I was in dire straits and, you know, she recommended it. So if I didn’t have those ressources, I would have been trapped in my head, you know, ruminating on what I was feeling and, you know, who knows where would I went. I hope that I would have been able to pull myself out of it but you never know.
CANDICE:
Yeah, you do! You never know. And thankfully you had the support of someone like Sheila who was on our podcast. She’s an author and just an incredible advocate, an ally and support to MAPs. Thankfully you could reach out to hear and listen to her, right?
ELLIOTT:
Yeah! I told her she needs to think about therapy and *laughs* as a… become a therapist and she’s like ‘‘I’m too though, you know, I’d call people on their BS’’. And I’m like ‘‘Well some people need that!’’ That’s what certain therapist, you know, work that way and some people, that’s what they need. *laughs*
CANDICE:
Yeah, a lot of people respect that. I think there’s definitely a way to call people out in a finesse way. I’ve done it before and, you know, you can do it. Definitely the finesse way because we all need that at some point, right?
So Elliott, where do you see yourself in the next year?
ELLIOTT:
Well, hopefully still advocating for the community. I started up a podcast that’s called A MAP’s Journey. It’s actually a year ago this month that it started. I started it with Rusty and Todd Nickerson. And it’s still going strong. We release one or two episodes every month so I hope to keep on doing that. You can find us on YouTube and Spotify and stuff like that. As well as, you know, just continuing to put forth more effort in getting the correct message out there to what it’s like to have this attraction. I also will, I mean it’s not much up to me, but I will advocate for even my mom. I hope that more people will listen to her podcast she did recently about need for parental and familiar support for those who have someone who is minor attracted in their life and they reach out to her because I know it got to be difficult for her, even as supportive as she is, to always, you know, lining up for those things in her head without anyone to talk to.
CANDICE:
Yeah, I hope so too. I mean, I think, that definitely… family’s, parent’s, partner’s, that is a population that really is underserved and I think the latest research in so many universities is trying to get folks to come forward to research parents and partners to see what support they need. So I agree with you.
And I love that you can see a future for yourself, you know, continue to advocate, I loved it. In years time, you and Rusty, shoutout to Rusty, shoutout to Todd Nickerson, for doing a podcast and talking about these issues. I think the more voices and podcasts we can have out there, the better. Because it is dispelling a lot of these myths and false assumptions and attacks that are constant. And that’s really how we create change, you know, it’s definitely how we create change. So, you now Elliot, you are just an awesome human being. Thank you for supporting our podcast and for coming on and being a voice to so many voiceless MAPs who get scared, and speaking for them, reading their stories. Thank you for the vlog that you’ve done and for coming back a year later and updating us on how you are doing. I hope that we can stay in touch.
ELLIOTT:
Yeah definitely, I always enjoy coming on and talking to you, you know. Thanks for being there, thanks for starting this podcast yourself because, like I said, I don’t know if it wasn’t for, I don’t know where my mom and I would be. I felt brave enough to even like let people in on our conversation. I recorded an episode from my podcast, for instance, mom and I talking, and I know a lot of people appreciated that. And so yeah, I definitely enjoy always coming on and discussing these matters and, like I said before, anyone who want to get their voice out there but they are too afraid to use their own, I am more than willing to do that for you guys.
CANDICE:
Well thank you! I am honored to hear that we had such a huge impact in your coming out process and getting the support that you need.
Elliot, how can people get in contact with you? If there’s a MAP listening and says ‘‘Wow, this, you know, Elliott person is so inspiring. I’d loved to talk more with them’’, how can they get a hold with you?
ELLIOTT:
Well, the main thing is through Twitter’s how I normally have people reach out to me first. I feel that’s the safest way. Once we get to know each other, I am more than willing to give other contact information. But my Twitter handle is NOMAP_Elliott
CANDICE:
Wonderful, ok!
Well Elliott, always a pleasure! Thank you so much! And you, just stay safe at home *laughs* and, hopefully this pandemic will… hopefully light out the tunnel soon.
ELLIOTT:
Yeah, that light might be really bright because we’re all *laughs* living in a dark cave. *laughs*
CANDICE:
*laughs* I agree! I agree!
But it’s so good to talk with you and I am sure I’ll see you on Twitter and just talk to you soon.
ELLIOTT:
Sure, yep! Look forward to it.
CANDICE:
All right! Thanks everybody! We appreciate you continuing to support us and thanks for listening. Talk to you soon.
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