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We interview anti-contact, non-offending pedophile who shares being an abuse survivor, his awareness of being gay as a teenager, recognizing early on that he was an exclusive pedophile, and now being a CSA prevention advocate. CANDICE:
Hi everybody and Happy New Year! It is 2020 and The Prevention Podcast is still going strong. Today to launch our season three, we have a lovely guest who is going by the name of Kira. So I wanna welcome you, Kira.
KIRA:
Hi Candice, it's great to be here and thanks for inviting me on.
CANDICE:
I just absolutely love having you here today. You know, Kira, you have a great story to share just as a human being, and also really as a minor-attracted person. I know in our exchange over the last couple of months, and what you've shared, there's just so much depth to who you are. And so, I really just wanna open up today in the new year to talk about really who you are and what you want the world to know about you. Because when people hear the word 'minor-attracted person', so many are confused, and so many are ignorant to what that means. So maybe we start there.
KIRA:
Yeah, that sounds fine. Look, it is something that confuses people, and I have told a few people about this and they're always horrified at first, you know, because the reaction is, "Why are you this way? Did you choose to be this way?", and it's these sorts of questions. And you realize it is not something you choose but it is something that troubles people. I remember a friend, I told a friend once and his response was, "This is very troubling." And it is troubling, you know, because the first time you realize it, it isn't normal, it isn't something you associate with being a normal person and being a minor-attracted person as well. It's a very strange thing, it's a very strange experience.
CANDICE:
Well, I'm curious about that too, you know, you had shared a little bit about growing up and your childhood, and maybe we could talk about that, just early experiences you had in life and how and when you realized that you were attracted to boys, and some of your initial thoughts and fears around that?
KIRA:
Yeah, so growing up, you know, I was very- I was quite introverted as a kid so I loved reading, I loved music, I used to play piano. I liked cats a lot, I still like cats. [laughter] But, you know, I was a pretty quiet kid. I didn't really notice feeling attracted to anybody, I guess, until around about, I was 14, I was 15, I was starting to notice...you know, I'm not interested in girls—because my friends were talking about girls, because I had guy friends when I was young—and I wasn't really interested in them, but I was noticing that, you know, boys were kind of cute. And, I started realizing at about 15, 16, I was starting to feel quite warm, quite attracted to younger boys as well. I thought- I was asking myself all sorts of questions about that, you know, I was asking, "Am I gay? Or what's going on here?" And so, yeah, it was quite an experience.
CANDICE:
Yeah, do you identify as gay as well?
KIRA:
I do identify as gay, but it's something I struggle with. I haven't had a proper relationship with a guy. I've tried a few things, and...none of it actually worked. So I think that would mean I'd be what you call an 'exclusive' MAP, meaning I'm exclusively attracted to children. I'd like to be more attracted to adults, but I'm not really.
CANDICE:
Okay, and so what has that been like for you? Because I know that we've had other individuals who were minor-attracted on our podcast who said that they really believed that being exclusive was actually even harder than being nonexclusive. And they had their own reasons, but I'm just curious what your- if that feels more challenging to you, and why that is?
KIRA:
Yeah, it's definitely more challenging for me. I've sort of been asking myself this question, like, I go, you know, I can accept the fact that I'm attracted to boys. I've never acted on it, it's not something that causes me a lot of distress. But not being able to be physically and sexually attracted to adults—that is something that has caused me a great deal of stress. And, you know, I've tried to change it, but it doesn't really work. And trying to accept that, it's been the hardest thing I've had to accept.
CANDICE:
Yeah... Yeah, and I can only imagine, and I am curious what, if any, type of support have you had as you have worked to accept that? Has there been anyone in your circle or around you—a therapist or a group—that you have felt like has been a safe support as you kind of come to a space of accepting that and grappling with it?
KIRA:
It's something I haven't- I've always been trying to decide it for myself because I've always had this question. Because I can be romantically attracted to men, and I have been. I've always been asking the question and I haven't really talked about it that much with other people. And it's something I'm even trying to talk about it with my friends, and it's...you know, it's always an ongoing discussion.
CANDICE:
Well yeah, and I think the biggest misunderstanding, especially for folks who are anti-contact, non-offending, the challenge is educating people that an attraction is not action.
KIRA:
That is exactly right. And on Twitter a lot, you know, we get bombarded with the message to "get help," meaning that there's an assumption that there is something about our attraction that we're choosing. We're not choosing it. We never choose it, we didn't want- you know, I've never met a pedophile who wanted to be the way they were. And it's not something you can change, but what you can do is you can get help with your behaviors, your thoughts—what I mean by your thoughts is how you interpret it. You can get help with all these things. But you can't change the attraction.
CANDICE:
Well, and I appreciate you saying that, because I think Twitter is a whole other world. I know we just see so much ignorance from people that automatically assume that someone that has an attraction to a child is a child molester. People will post pictures of jail cells and say, you know, "You should be in prison." It's just flat out ignorance.
So I feel for you, and I am happy that you're on today because you have so many good points. And I really want us to talk about one of the things that you shared is there's this culture—and I don't know that we've actually talked about it yet on our podcast, but—the culture of communities in relation to the tension between pro-contact and anti-contact attitudes. And maybe I'm opening up a can of worms here—perhaps I am—but I am curious because it hasn't really been brought up on our podcast. Can you educate the global community on what a pro-contact pedophile or minor-attracted person is, versus an anti-contact minor-attracted person?
KIRA:
Well, this really is a can of worms. But, look, it is something to talk about. The first thing is, there aren't necessarily entirely clear lines between what pro-contact and an anti-contact pedophile might be, because you could have some views that are in a pro-contact area and then you might have some views that are in an anti-contact area. But in general, the main difference is that a pro-contact pedophile would say that it is possible to have sexual relations between an adult and a child without it being inherently abusive or exploitative; and an anti-contact pedophile would say, "No, that is not possible. A child cannot give consent to that." And I'm very much in the anti-contact camp, on that side.
CANDICE:
Well, I appreciate you explaining it. I think you did a good job of just really clearly stating it. I will say that we also are of the camp of being anti-contact—believing that children can not only not consent, but that it does cause harm. And in the work that we do with survivors of childhood sexual abuse, as well as me being a survivor, I can say that there definitely is harm that we see all the time in the adults that we work with. And I can speak to myself and for myself now, I will say, I have talked to people who have different experiences—and okay, you know, I respect that. And I am with you, I am of the anti-contact stance as a clinician, a trauma expert, and a survivor. So, thank you for not opening up too much of the can on that one.
You talked also to me about your coming out process with your sister, and I'm just curious about that because I know we work with so many minor-attracted persons that just don't have the support of family, and so coming out can be really daunting. What was the situation around that, and what was that like for you?
KIRA:
Yeah, well, I'll start at the beginning. That's a whole fascinating conversation with me because I grew up in a very, very Christian household, so we're very strict on our religious beliefs. And one of the things we'd get taught in church was that, you know, homosexuals would be going to hell. You know, it's a terrible messsage, but it was pretty common in churches, and in a lot of churches at that time. Just to give a bit of context, I'm in my mid-forties, so I was growing up in the '80s and the early '90s. So the message I was hearing that, you know, being gay was the worst thing, and I was really struggling with these thoughts toward boys my age and younger boys as well.
The first time I actually came out, I tried talking to my older sister about this. And we were just going out on a drive and I said, you know, "Hey, can I talk to you about something?" And the first week I said, "I'm attracted to guys." And she was saying "Oh," and she thought about it and goes, "That's absolutely fine," and, "that's wonderful," and, "Just talk to me if you ever need help."
But then I was thinking- I knew at that time, I was far more interested in boys around puberty or even younger. I knew I was being dishonest, so I tried talking to her again a week after, and I said, you know, "I'm actually attracted to boys—being little boys." And then she was going, "Oh, that's-" you know, "You must never, ever act on that." And I was feeling really judged in that whole process. And I knew at that time I was never going to act on it because I knew it would cause great distress and it would cause trouble for me. I knew at that time, it's just that she was- I got the feeling that my older sister was telling me something I already knew. And that didn't really make me feel very good as a person.
So, this was all back when I was 18, and then I started thinking about it and I started regretting having done that. I just- ...Yeah, it was a difficult time, and we were all going through our own issues as kids in our family as well. And I didn't talk to her that much about it after that period. And...I didn't really talk to anybody offline for the next 20 years, so...
And then I started a second coming out process when I was in my late thirties, early forties, I started doing it again, in a better way. But that first initial experience, it didn't go well, and I'm sort of going back to it now and trying to think, "Did I say something wrong?" Or maybe it was I just didn't have the help I needed, on a psychological point, at that time in my life.
CANDICE:
Well, and I think- I mean, if you think about it, if we're talking about the '80s, that is so long ago, and we have absolutely come so far and still there is this judgement, stigma, and again, misunderstanding. And so, my heart goes out to you, being 18, reaching out to your sister, whom you trusted, and then feeling that judgement.
My thought is, what advice do you have for teenagers who might be listening who are minor-attracted, who haven't shared with anyone and desperately need to be able to find a safe person to share this with? What advice do you have?
KIRA:
I think the best advice is to try to find someone who is very, very empathetic, very, very secure in themselves and who they are, someone who isn't going through any stress at that time in their lives. And if they know anything about the subject offhand, at the start, that's good, but they may not necessarily know anything about it.
The other thing that is good is to try to find a therapist who they can actually trust, and just start talking about the way they feel, about their life. And try to gauge how a therapist may feel, because I've heard some stories about therapists who have been judgemental and who haven't been helpful, but I've also heard a lot of good stories and I've had a good experience with a psychologist myself. So if you can get that rapport with someone who is very empathetic, very secure, you can sort of use that as a launching pad and start coming out to more people within your family and your friends. And that can be a way to go.
CANDICE:
Well, I love that, and I agree that there are definitely more licensed clinicians out there at the end of this year that I'm hearing about who are more open, and empathetic, and supportive of individuals who have minor attractions. There are always going to be individuals who are clinicians who don't understand, but the good news is there is really a community of clinicians globally who do want to be able to be a support to individuals who have minor attractions. We have two therapist-led psychoeducational support groups weekly for folks to call into. B4U-ACT is a great resource, VirPed, Don't Offend India has online resources supportive of MAPs, I know that the name is a little bit off-putting. So there are other resources out there for folks.
And I think people need to be mindful on social media; social media can be a good support but it also can be pretty dangerous. And so if you're a teenager, or you know of a teenager who's struggling with this process of having a minor attraction, and doesn't have a support and wants to seek out Twitter for that support: I think caution needs to be used, because I all too often just see teenagers get online and get attacked and that can be really, really challenging, if not horrifying, if not exceptionally detrimental.
KIRA:
Yeah, very much so. I mean, people like Twitter and other platforms, I think Tumblr used to be quite a popular platform for it. But there is a bigger risk because it's such an open platform, everybody is on it and not everybody has the best intentions toward minor-attracted people. And you have people who are critical for valid reasons, maybe they are very skeptical of us, they've got good reason to be skeptical, I think, sometimes. But you also have people who are just being hostile and trying to break other people down as an outlet for their own aggression. And I think a lot of young MAPs don't need to deal with that; they can deal with it, some of them can, but it isn't necessarily the first place to go for support. It could be a link to other people in the community, and that's good, but there are risks associated with it like you say.
CANDICE:
Yeah. I would love for us to spend some time talking about a relationship you had, where you realized that the individual actually had some dangerous attitudes—I don't know if it was towards children, but I know you had mentioned that it ended up being a concerning relationship for you. Can we spend some time talking about that?
KIRA:
Sure. What I can do is I can talk a bit about the first time I reached out online for support, and I'll talk a bit about the community I found; I actually won't mention them by name, but I don't think there'd be a problem with that. So they're a fairly well-known site, it's actually a site for people attracted to boys specifically—they have other sites for people attracted to girls. And I guess this is another issue, isn't it? The idea that people are forming shared communities based on who they're attracted to, as opposed to on shared values—I think that's what could've been a cause of concern. But at the time there weren't many places to look for help, and I was talking to people and I was reaching out to people who were accepting me for who I am. And as much as it wasn't a perfect community, but I think that really helped me at the time of my life I was in, at the stage I was in.
So, I did reach out to this place. There was nothing illegal on the site either, it was basically just a chat site, chat community. And I made some friends, I got to know people, I got to talk to people. What I found out is they had a very diverse range of attitudes toward sexual relations between minors and adults on that site. So you had both people who were pro-contact and people who were anti-contact on that site, although those terms weren't used at the time. So you had this really chaotic sort of community, this chaotic exchange of ideas. But at the time I felt I was getting accepted by everybody, so I was being very open to people with all sorts of different ideas. And I liked it, because I like to think of myself as a very tolerant person, and I was thinking, "Okay, this is good, I'm being tolerant."
And I met a few people, I met this one guy, and because I was trying to talk to all kinds of different people to find people I might have things in common with, other than attraction to boys- find people I had other things in common with, you know—I was very lonely at that time in my life. I met this guy, and he was a great guy, we met up in the city and we had a good time, but when I was talking to him I was noticing there were some things- I was very concerned about the way he was talking about boys. I thought he really showed a lack of care, a lack of concern about the harm that could be caused. And he was very- he was using child pornography as well, child sexual exploitation material, which is an issue. And I was thinking, "I could've said something against that," but I didn't say anything against that, because this is that whole idea is I was trying to model myself as a very tolerant person. So—because we were in different cities, I travelled to meet him—I went back home, I heard a few months later, he'd been arrested for sexually molesting a boy. I didn't know he'd had any intentions to do that, but that really shook me up.
CANDICE:
Wow, yeah. Yeah, I bet. And I- it's so interesting again, you think you know people, right? And here you're grappling with your own attraction and not wanting to cause harm to any child, and then, as you've said, you are trying to be open to this person knowing that he's viewing child sexual exploitation material. And then you find out this, that he crossed over into contact offending, which is, you know, molesting a child. And so, yeah, I can only imagine how impactful that was for you, and it's interesting because again, we haven't actually talked about that too much. It's definitely impactful.
And do you wanna talk about having a history where you were molested but you weren't really sure because of the age of him, or it was masturbation, or what- do you wanna go there?
KIRA:
Yeah, let's go there. So, I didn't really understand this when I was growing up. There was something that happened when I was five years old, and I didn't really have a good memory of it because I was just blurred into other memories; I think it's that way for a lot of kids. But I found this out later from talking to my middle sister—not the sister I came out to earlier, this was a different sister, my middle sister—but she was talking to me because we were quite close. And we were talking about things that'd happened.
And what I found out was that a family relation, who's actually our uncle, had actually masturbated in front of us—being myself and my sister, when I was five and she was three. And for some reason, my sister had remembered it; I just put it behind me because I'd been focusing on other things—well, other interests—but I just hadn't had a clear memory. And then the image came back to me and- you know, people can be skeptical about recovered memories, but there was actually an image there, and I sort of put two and two together and so I'm saying, "Okay, this actually happened."
And it's actually funny because I realized this at a similar time to when I was asking myself questions about this community I was in online. And then I was thinking, "How do I get meaning from this?" It's hard to actually get much meaning because I don't understand how this impacted me, or anything I've- I had so many questions.
CANDICE:
What I do wanna say about that, Kira, is being a five-year-old, and your sister being three, and having an adult family member masturbate in front of you is...abuse. Now, I know, that there might be some people that say no, and you might question that as well, so we can definitely talk about that. And a kindergartener, preschooler, is not thinking about anything sexual in that regard, or able to say, "Yes, let's watch you do this for your pleasure."
KIRA:
That's right. Obviously, I had no control over that situation. As a kid, you know, you're curious about everything, but you don't know what everything means. And it's even different than a child who might be 13 or 14. You just sort of go along with it, and then it just becomes one of those influences that sort of affects you.
Now, when I was realizing that, I was going through so much turmoil for a long time, and that turmoil, really—I was really, really struggling with that, because I was asking myself the question- I was going, "Am I a pedophile because this happened to me?" And I don't think it can ever be that simple, but I was thinking- and then I was judging myself because what I'm saying is, "Am I looking for an excuse for my attraction?" I've always felt bad about myself for being attracted to boys, and I was thinking, "Can I put the blame on someone else for my attractions? Can I actually do that?" And then I was thinking it's actually wrong to try and do that. So there's all these turmoils going on in my life over the next few years, and I really went on quite a downward spiral in my life at that time.
CANDICE:
Well, and I actually think what you're describing is probably what a lot of folks with minor attractions experience—you know, just a lot of questioning, "Did this originate from an experience? Was I born with this? What does this mean?" Especially because the term 'pedophile' is absolutely so misunderstood, of course you're going to question that and, "Where does this originate?" and, "Did this happening to me impact my attraction?" And so on and so forth.
We take a biopsychosocial approach when we look at outreach and support services for minor-attracted persons because of what we have seen over the last several years of the individuals that come to us and say, "I have a minor attraction and this is my history," and also that, "I believe I was born with this so this is something that I didn't choose," as you said in the very beginning. And so many have experiences as children that they're also grappling with, that we see some really interesting just kind of wisdom and insight in the folks that we work with, especially if we do any sort of trauma work around the situation or the experience of abuse that they had. So, that is probably a whole other conversation, and we could probably go on and on about that for hours.
One of the things though, as we start to wrap it up for today. You've talked about being a real advocate for change, and campaigning for change and positivity on social media, and I would love for you to share just your stance on that and what you're doing to really be an advocate for change and get some real education out there. So can you speak to that today?
KIRA:
Sure. What I'd like to do is maybe just talk about how I sort of got out of that downward spiral, and where I really started changing, because that led to my interest in advocacy.
CANDICE:
Great.
KIRA:
So, what actually happened, when I was around 40, 39—a few years ago now—I was really at rock bottom, you know, I wanted it all to end. I was getting some very, very, very bad thoughts, and I just wanted to end everything. And I had an intervention, if you like, it was probably just a- just something inside myself just saying, "Hey, hang on a minute. You need to survive here, and you're destroying yourself, so break out of the spiral." It could've been a religious experience, it could've just been me waking up and saying, "You are the way you are. You can't change it. And that's all right, you know. It doesn't mean that you're a bad person," and, you know, "The future is important."
And I started really opening up again, I started looking for people online—this is after I've broken contact with all my online communities years and years ago. I started reaching out to people again, but I was looking more for people who shared my ideals, and who were really committed to never abusing a child—absolutely being committed to that from the get-go. And I started reaching out to people again.
And the other thing I started doing is I started seeing a psychologist. And really, I went through learning about cognitive behavior therapy, which is a really great process; it's the idea of just trying to analyze your thoughts and your behaviors and actually micromanaging your behaviors on a level, and challenging yourself on what you're doing. And that really helped me just get control over some things that I hadn't had control over before. So that was a fantastic thing I did.
The other thing I did a few years back is, I wrote down everything that happened in my life, and I tried to put a good spin on it. I wrote it all down on an iPad, and I went out to see my aunt—because she was the lady in the family, she was really trusted and very loved, and she was a very empathetic person—and I said, "Hey, can you just read this?" And I gave her like four pages worth of stuff that just happened in my life. And she was very understanding and very accepting. And that was the start of a process where I started coming out to pretty much most of the people in my family who I depend from for support. So that was a- I guess it was a great period of change in my life where I stopped being ashsamed, I started being accountable, and I started changing the way I look at things.
And I eventually—through this process of reaching out to the community again—I found a guy called 'Ender', who you probably know?
CANDICE:
Yes.
KIRA:
Yeah. So, with Ender, I met him, not on MAP Support Chat—which is the chat site he was running, an offshoot of VirPed if you like—but I met him somewhere else, on another chat group. And I started talking to him and then I realized, we've got a lot of common values. And, well, we really got to know each other, and I met other people through that like Bly, TNF; and I've been much more involved with that group of people over the last two or three years, if you like. And from that, they also said, "If you want to start being an advocate on Twitter, then that is something you do. You can contribute to the conversation there." So that's how I ended up on Twitter and really talking about some of the issues I feel strongly about. And I haven't been banned yet, so that's a good thing. [laughter]
CANDICE:
Well, yeah, and I mean I would be shocked if you were banned, and I wanna say that you definitely are a positive voice in the Twitter community for education. And I know you've shared getting frustrated about when people say "convicted pedophiles." So, again, doing some education to say, "Hey, that's not accurate. Not everyone who has an attraction to a child is an automatic child molester." Would you say that that is probably one of the primary forums in which you're educating- or platforms that you're educating people on a lot?
KIRA:
Yeah, Twitter is the forum that has the biggest audience, and I have been using that. I don't know if everybody is reading my messages, but I know a lot of people are, and...
CANDICE:
I read them!
KIRA:
Yeah, oh, you do! [laughter] And that's great! Let's talk about that terminology ... When the media refers to "convicted pedophiles," it's a very harmful message to actually send, because what you're saying- Being a pedophile, it means having a sexual attraction to children; it does not mean criminal behavior, it does not mean using child sexual exploitation material, it does not mean grooming, it doesn't mean sexual abuse. But the media uses language that makes people feel like they are criminals just for having that attraction. And I think if they really question themselves and say, "Let's use the proper terminology. Let's say a 'convicted child abuser' or 'convicted user of child sexual exploitation material.'" Okay, it's longer, but it's more accurate, and you're not trying to criminalize someone who doesn't want to be a criminal. I think that would be a really helpful change.
We also need that signal to be taken up by people who aren't MAPs, because the media hear that from someone ... and say, "Oh, that's a pedophile themselves, we don't need to listen to them." So, sometimes you feel like that message isn't being picked up, and even though I really feel that's a very strong and valid message, I think people in society, they don't want to listen to that message, and that's a very frustrating thing for me.
CANDICE:
Well, and I think the media is also about shocking, and I think it's based a lot on fear. I definitely agree with you that we could do a better job of spelling out 'convicted of downloading child sexual exploitation material'—this is what that means; 'convicted of molesting children.' And, you know, people understand what that is. So, I'm with you, I think there's still a lot more educating to do. I know I had people reach out to me when Dax Shepard on his podcast talked about pedophiles, and made some gross assumptions about the equating of pedophiles to child molesters, and went on and on about that. And I get why people will get scared. And let's just- let's get educated about it. That's the whole purpose why I started The Prevention Podcast, why we have the Global Prevention Project's MAPs program. Because I really want- first of all I want individuals who have minor attractions to get accurate support, especially because they're not sex offenders, and sex offender treatment's very different.
KIRA:
It's also very- sorry to interrupt you... [laughter] I think another thing I wanted to talk about is I think it's really important they're getting the support from people who have the right kind of culture. And this is something I'd like to talk about because I've seen the worst side of culture from MAPs. And, you know, it isn't all good, because you do have MAPs who are pro-contact, or if they're not pro-contact, they're saying it's okay to use child sexual exploitation material in private; it really isn't, and that's not a message that we can condone. And that's something I really try to talk about because I think it's not something we like talking about, but it's such an important conversation. We have to talk about it being wrong and also why it's being wrong. Because...yeah-
CANDICE:
I agree.
KIRA:
It's such an important conversation to have because when you're talking about child sexual exploitation material, you're being involved with something that's a violation of the rights of another person. And we can't condone that at any level; any image that is sexually exploiting a child, we can't condone that. And the problem with offending like that in secret—I know it is something that some MAPs struggle with—is you lose a little bit of integrity; if you're using that in secret, it's gonna hurt you later on. So, I just think it's really important that young MAPs understand how dangerous it is and how problematic that material is.
CANDICE:
Well, I appreciate you saying that, and one of the things I do wanna say is, if you Google a victim statement from a victim of child sexual exploitation material and you hear the adults talk about how when they were four and molested, or whatever age and molested, and how now those images are out there forever, and as they walk around in their adulthood and they feel completely always traumatized because they don't know who has seen them and who hasn't. You see the impact and how pervasive child sexual exploitation material is—and gosh, that's a mouthful, so it's CSEM, also known legally as child pornography. But you are absolutely right, we don't condone it. We have a lot of individuals who struggle with viewing it, both minor-attracted persons and not, and they come to treatment because they don't wanna be viewing it because they understand the impact. A lot of the folks that come to us talk about having escalated addictions where they got addicted to pornography and it escalated into CSEM. So I'm with you Kira, I think that is a very important topic and I'm so happy we were able to talk about it today on our podcast.
And with that, we are out of time. So I just wanna thank you again for being on our first podcast of 2020. Thank you so much, Kira.
KIRA:
Thank you very much, Candice. It's been my pleasure.
CANDICE:
Yeah, and I wanna thank all of our listeners. You know, we record these when people reach out to us. This isn't something that we have scheduled ongoing, and so, we are always telling people: if you want to get your story out as a minor-attracted person, a family, a partner of a minor-attracted person, a researcher, a journalist; let us know. If you wanna come on our podcast and talk about child sexual abuse prevention, or, you know, if you have a history where you were a convicted sex offender and you've made changes and you're now an advocate for change and an advocate for CSA prevention, we wanna hear from you. We are open to talking about anything that has to do with child sexual abuse prevention. And we believe that folks like Kira are doing an amazing job in the world of being a huge advocate in so many ways.
So, thanks for listening everybody! Happy New Year, and we'll talk to you soon. | |
