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Candice and Claire talk about parents and partners of MAPs needing support and what can be done so that they can get the support they need in safe and compassionate way. CANDICE:
Welcome everybody!
We are so excited to have a mom of a minor attracted person on our podcast today. Let's welcome Claire : Hi Claire!
CLAIRE:
Hi!
CANDICE:
Claire came on last year, I believe, with her son Elliott who is a minor attracted person, and you both did such a wonderful job on that podcast. In fact, we had so many people after reach out to us just so grateful that you, as a parent of a minor attracted person, was willing to come on.
And so, I just want to welcome you back Claire. Thank you so much for being willing to come back.
CLAIRE:
Well thanks for having me!
CANDICE:
Now, I... you know, one of that things that I was just saying to you before we started recording was : we get so many people reaching out saying "We need support" you know, "I'm a parent, I'm a partner of a individuals who identify as minor attracted", whatever that means. Maybe it's a person, let's say "I'm a pedophile" or "I'm a hebophile, ephebophile" and as a family member, or the loved one, "I just... I need support. I need a place I can talk to".
So last year, we decided that we wanted to start a support group for family members. And what I was saying to Claire was, no one responded. No one signed up.
And so, maybe we start there Claire with, firstly, there's a huge need for support and yet, people aren't responding.
What are your thoughts about that?
CLAIRE:
I think it may be fear of some type because look how long it took for MAPs to feel like they could trust somebody else, you know. I don't know! I can only speak for myself... I mean I would join, I think... another aspect was the cost. And I think people were weary because of the cost.
CANDICE:
Well, I really appreciate you saying that cost could be part of it as well as fear. Because, I think... my guess is, and again feel free to speak to this Claire, but I can only imagine the fear that someone who has a minor attraction feels on a daily basis, just from what I witnessed and since/
CLAIRE:
Sure!
CANDICE:
/let alone a parent who says "I support my child in loving them. I don't necessarily understand" or some parent might say "I don't necessarily agree with their attraction but they're my child, I still love them".
CLAIRE:
That's right!
CANDICE:
Ok!
And so the fear... The fear there, of sharing with other people must be daunting.
CLAIRE:
It is. It's very daunting.
You know, because... I think I've mentioned before that I had shared with my very close sister and, down the road, it kind of snowball on me, in different ways. But I mean she's still very supportive and everything but some other family members weren't.
And also, Elliott's brother doesn't have anything to do with him because he thinks that if somebody knows he knows, then he'll get in some kind of trouble. I have no idea why but that's that.
So he doesn't have anything to do with him and just a little bit of contact with me, just a little.
CANDICE:
I can appreciate you saying what you said Claire about family and the fear there and how people make assumption, a lot of assumptions. I just... was told by a colleague, you know, just today that they don't want to collaborate, you know, on another thing that I do because I have The Global Prevention Project. And the comment was something like they're a child sexual abuse survivor and don't have sympathy for this population. And so I think there're just, again, there're just gross assumption of... and complete misunderstanding without fully getting educated. You know/
CLAIRE:
It's societal, it's what it is.
CANDICE:
It really is societal.
And so, getting back to family members. Here you are, and you are wanting to find a group as a parent that can be a place of safety where you could talk about how to support your son as well as, maybe your own issues of confusion and so on and so forth. And so, tell me, have you been able to find that kind of support yet?
CLAIRE:
No. No, not at all.
CANDICE:
OK. And so, I can only imagine that must feel really isolating.
CLAIRE:
Well, it... yeah. His father... Elliott's father knew but now he has Alzheimer so he doesn't know anyone or can't talk so. I did have him for a short time but that's not anymore.
CANDICE:
Ok.
Now, when you first found out, how long ago was that? When you found out that... when he assured that he was attracted to minors?
CLAIRE:
I think it's about twelve years.
CANDICE:
So twelve years ago. Ok.
And when you first heard, he told you, what was your response?
CLAIRE:
I was in disbelief. I was just like "This cannot be!"
And, you know, he was crying and I held him and I said "We'll work through this" or whatever, you know, I can't remember all the details. I just think I was in shock that something like this could really be, you know.
CANDICE:
Yeah.
CLAIRE:
And then I didn't know it, I mean, you know, as a mother, I mean I was just shock that... I guess, disappointed in myself that I didn't see it and that was the other part of it too, I guess.
CANDICE:
Feeling that if you could have seen what specifically?
CLAIRE:
Right right, and I, you know, that's when internet world came in and he got onto that and I really wasn't aware of what was going on there so...
CANDICE:
Well, I think a lot of folks do get online in search of understanding and support. Especially when they are first having that coming out process of, like you said, shock and disbelief. "Can this be?". I think a lot of folks that have minor attractions, specifically pedophilia, are afraid that they are going to automatically molest a child. And so, I think tides have change nowadays where there are a lot of really solid ressources to keep kids safe. So there's/
CLAIRE:
Right.
CANDICE:
/of being anti-contact, where it's like "we want to support keeping children safe". How can you manage your attraction all the while ensuring that you are a safe member of society, right? But, I've heard from a lot of minor attracted persons that, way back in the day... I say "way back" like it was, you know, so long ago! It was, actually! But, there really wasn't a lot of stuff. With the stuff that they could find online really was more about pro-contact.
CLAIRE:
Yes, yeah!
CANDICE:
Which can create a lot of confusion. And so, I agree with you. I think there needs to be support for family members so that there can be honest discussion where you can be vulnerable, talk about your whole process from... You know, I think there're stages of grief,
CLAIRE:
Sure, sure.
CANDICE:
And, also get educated accurately that this doesn't mean that your child is going to automatically molest children, right?
CLAIRE:
Yeah, I know Elliott and I... he just loves children. He would never hurt anyone. And I just sometimes think of how isolated he was, without any body knowing so I'm thrilled he came out to me and I can support him.
But the loneliness and the isolation, the depression... He was always like a loner and... I imagine what he went through. He said he had such loathing and self hate and that just breaks my heart.
CANDICE:
Yeah. Yeah, that and, for you, again, as a parent, maybe you can help the listeners, perhaps if there're other parents or family members, or even partners, who had just found out about their loved one, what would some of the other experiences that you had going on internally?
Like you said, shock and disbelief, what other themes can someone expect going through this?
CLAIRE:
I just think, you know, yeah, I was afraid that he would hurt, you know, molest a child or something. And... I just felt like he was always hiding something and just, you know, I think there was a little trust issue for several years. But now that he's found you and all this support, it's like he can breath again. He just feels like, you know... and he went to that convention, I forget where it was last year, in Maryland I think?
CANDICE:
I believe it was B4UACT in Maryland, they had a symposium.
CLAIRE:
Yeah! And he said that was the happiest day that ever was in his life. And that just ripped my heart out. So...It's so good now that we just talk freely and he tells me about his conversations with his MAP friends and their different issues and things. And the one friend his mother knows but she will not acknowledge it, won't talk about it, you know. He's offered for me to talk with her and she just ignores it. She just doesn't want anything to do with it.
CANDICE:
Well yeah! I think it can be really overwhelming and hard for a lot of parents to try and wrap their head around their child saying "I have this attraction to children and I don't know what to do with it. I don't want to hurt anyone." I think for a lot of people, they automatically assume like you did in your process "Whoa! I don't want my son to molest a child" and you know, I think... One of the things that you were saying that I though was... everyone is safer with support.
CLAIRE:
Oh! Absolutely!
CANDICE:
Every human being. You know that anyone in isolation, if anyones depress, alone, isolated, they're at risk/
CLAIRE:
Yes.
CANDICE:
/from hurting themselves and they're at risk for hurting other people. And we've seen that in a lot of different scenarios. We've seen that with teenagers who end up shooting up schools/
CLAIRE:
Right, right!
CANDICE:
/we think about, you know, when you hear about certain serial killers that you go back into their history and they felt so alone and isolated. And then individuals that end up dying from suicide where they were/
CLAIRE:
Oh yeah!
CANDICE:
/and so depressed, and felt like they had no one to talk to at any age. And I'm not comparing an individual that says I have an attraction to minors to a serial killer or to someone that's going to shoot up school. I'm not saying that.
CLAIRE:
Right, right!
CANDICE:
What I am saying is that we... people have mental health issues and they're isolated and they're depressed and they feel ashamed about their identity and who they are, it puts them at risk and it pushes the risk for a variety of things.
And, what we also forget, we forget about the parents, like yourself. We forget about those partners, because we know a lot of partners who are/
CLAIRE:
Yes!
CANDICE:
/individuals who identify as having attractions to children.
CLAIRE:
Yes.
CANDICE:
But we forget as a society that those people exists and then people are so quick to judge, right? There's a term [...] used when we say "pedophiles" and to so many people out there it equals child molester which equals...
CLAIRE:
A monster.
CANDICE:
Yeah. And so, I really wanted us to do this podcast today Claire, because I want other family members to know that they can come forward and get support. I think the challenge that we're facing though is that when we advertise, there's just not a lot of response. And I get that, you know, we were saying 25$ for a 90 minutes class or support that might inhibit people from wanting to call in and get that support. I do wonder though, if we offer something for free or other organisations, any one, if there would me a response. I'm curious about that. And so, maybe what we can do Claire, is just take some time and maybe you and I could just talk about what might create some trust in parents and family member/
CLAIRE:
Well I think you hit on a good, I'd made an argument, you hit on a good point about offering it free. Maybe you could just say for the first few months, it's free, you know. I know for me, it's like, there's... I mean there is so much I don't understand, and I try and Elliott tries to explain it to me but I don't think anyone without that attraction truly, truly knows or understands underneath their turmoil and everything. But, it's like there's other things that confuse me a little bit too and it would be nice to talk to somebody about it and... you know, I'm sure Elliott cannot express everything to me, you know. And that's why I'm glad he has in prevention program and all the MAP friends he has, it's just wonderful for him. It's just made a big difference in his life.
CANDICE:
Well yeah! And I agree. I think the support would be key and I think offering something for free absolutely would be an option, for sure. I think our bind isn't that we need quote "money" per say for the groups we do. We do have to pay our staff. I feel we're not a grant based program, I think we found it quite challenging to get funding for [...] for these people.
Yeah, there's just judgement. But then again, my hope would be that if that is something that is offered, that people do attend. If we are committing... this is why we actually do low cost groups because we believe that people need to have skin in the game when we've offer things for free and people still don't show up, [...] like this is for you! Our clinicians are taking that time to be committed to you and, you know, we have really specific curriculums that we use for our different groups and support. We also want for people to have skin in the game.
CLAIRE:
Right. Well, you know, I think if I could encourage, you know, other MAPs to maybe encourage their parents in some ways that I'm willing to start the ball rolling. You know what I mean? It's like... maybe if there's a person that starts it then they might feel free and they could use an alias. Maybe they don't even know that they could use an alias. That might be another fear they have, you know.
CANDICE:
I love that you just said that because you're using one too. You know, Claire is an alias and for folks that are listening, I think that's so key... you are right! It could be anonymous, it could be an anonymous support where people can call in and use a pseudonym or an allias and get that support.
CLAIRE:
And my son's an allias too.
CANDICE:
Yeah, Elliott is an allias. There's so many MAPs, I mean, we did an interview recently were Elliott actually read for another MAP/
CLAIRE:
Yes he told me.
CANDICE:
And so, I think we're just trying to break down the barriers so... we're just putting it out there for the global community that Claire, you are willing to offer that support, to get the ball rolling if there is a response, right?
And I think that's something that we need is a response. And so,.../
CLAIRE:
Yeah, I just, I don't know. I just feel that... you know, maybe the MAPs, you know, maybe could... maybe talk to their parents or loved one. I know Elliott has a friend who's married and his wife's knows and, you know, it's hard on her sometime, I mean, it would be good for her to talk to somebody, you know?
CANDICE:
Yeah! When you said that, one of the thoughts I had too was : any advice for parents or partners, being that you're a parent, let's start with parent, if they listen to this and, you know, their child comes to them and says "I'm attracted to children", what advice can you give to parents to be able to hear what they have to say?
CLAIRE:
I think first of all and foremost, it's not like they chose this. It's not like... and it's not an easy life. And the attraction is just a sexual orientation, it's just the way it is. And most of these definitely don't want to abuse and they just need to understood and directed to some nice support for them.
CANDICE:
Yeah, and so again, this isn't something they woke up and chose. This isn't something that... A lot of folks are not excited to have this in fact, no minor attracted person ever talk about this and said "I wake up and I'm so excited to be attracted to children"
CLAIRE:
Exactly yes!
CANDICE:
It's more like a life sentence and/
CLAIRE:
It really is! It is a life sentence.
CANDICE:
Yeah! Yeah, what they are needing is parents to love them unconditionally regardless and to get educated on it. You know, you called it "sexual orientation", I think some people might argue that. I don't argue that because I do believe in the research that's done that does show biological underpinnings to pedophilia and I also believe in the psycho-social component as well just based on our clients that shared about that... go ahead.
CLAIRE:
No, it's just to say I've done so much research through the years, I've come to the conclusion that it's not a choice.
CANDICE:
Yeah! So another piece of advice, it's sounds like, these are my words Claire but, for parents to get educated, do some research, and not... I'm not talking about going to the Star magazine or Sun or you know/
CLAIRE:
*Laughs* Right right!
CANDICE:
/look at the tried and true Dr. Tenbergen, the research coming out of Dunkelfeld... I know Dunkelfeld gets a lot of flak but they got some decent/
CLAIRE:
/in Germany?
CANDICE:
Yeah in Germany, they got some decent research on brain imaging and what's going on... You know, our friends in United Kingdom, Dr Rebecca Livesley, her team do incredible stuff on stigma and Dr Cantor was one of the leaders, Dr Seto, again one of the leaders, Dr Letourneaux, Dr Walker, there are so many... I'm not even naming half of the researchers/
CLAIRE:
Ah I bet!
CANDICE:
/that parents can really get educated on in terms of what are we finding, what are the findings that... You know, Claire, we actually on our website have a literature page where, if you are curious about the research, we just done as much as we can to put it out there to find that because that way, if parents are curious, are concerned, unsure, confuse, you can get data instead of opinion.
CLAIRE:
That's good, that's really good. Yeah, I wasn't aware of that.
Through the years, Elliot would say "I just wished Dr Aemond or somebody could do a brain scan on me and tell me what's going on", you know, but he knows he couldn't afford it to travel to Germany right now but maybe someday!
CANDICE:
Well Dr Amond or Aemond, however it's pronounced, I think he's in United States/
CLAIRE:
He is in United States yeah.
CANDICE:
Yeah and so, if there're researchers, you have someone that's willing to have you do a brain scan on him just to see what's going on in his brain as a pedophile and so/
CLAIRE:
I would love that.
CANDICE:
Yeah, and I think he is saying he wants to understand from a biological standpoint, which is great! And there is a lot that's come out.
So, going back to advice, what are some themes, if parents are listening and they have their child, wether it's a teenager or an adult, that comes forward to say "I need to tell you that I'm attracted to children", what are some other ways parents can respond that are beneficial for both people involved in the conversation?
CLAIRE:
I might say, like, make an effort to understand. Maybe just say well, you know, "tell me when you first notice it and tell me what it's been like" or, you know, in a non-judgmental way, just try to understand where they are coming from instead of... In first, you're going to be shock, you're going to be angry, you're going to be curious, all those things you are going to go through just naturally. But I think once the dust settles, I think... they're your child and I you love them unconditionally and, you know... I don't know, I just feel very, very fortunate that Elliott and I have this wonderful relationship.
And like I said, since he found all this support he's just happier and, I don't know, just more confident. He really lack confidence in a lot of areas in his life so, and he does have a little bit of the rest of the development which adds to it too. You know, he'd like to get therapy for that, he's lost his job so he's in the process of finding another one so once he gets benefits, he thinks he'll be able to get some therapy and stuff so... And I think for parents too, like, they may need therapy but they can't exactly come out and say why but they may need therapy for other issue that might help along the way. It's hard to explain for me but I think there's probably a lot of underlying issues for parents as well.
CANDICE:
Well I think parents could come forward and say "my child is struggling with an attraction and I'm...", if it's a therapist that's educated and understands that not every single person that has an attraction to minors is an automatic child molester/
CLAIRE:
But they're afraid they're gonna get reported.
CANDICE:
Ok. I think a lot of parents might be scared of being reported but, just to remind every body that's listening today, license clinicians, we are ethically require, obligated, it is our duty, to report identifiable information relating to a contact crime. In some cases, it's not all contact. It can be downloading child pornography, I'll give the example of California for instance, but if you as a parent said "my child or my adult child assured that they're attracted to children, they never harmed a child, they don't ever want to, they're committed to never harming a child. They are struggling with their sexual identity or sexual orientation. I'm struggling with this information, I'm going through anger, I'm confuse, I feel sad, I feel alone in this. I want to work through my response so that I can love my child."
CLAIRE:
Oh that's good.
CANDICE:
Good therapist who understands this population and the family members will be open to providing that therapeutic support because again, we're talking about emotional dysregulation. The parent is coming in saying "I'm struggling with this information, I need help with coping" right?
CLAIRE:
Right. Exactly.
CANDICE:
And to therapists who believe that they have to report that, I say that as kindly and as gently as I can but, let's also just call it what it is, they are ignorant.
CLAIRE:
Exactly.
CANDICE:
They clearly don't understand their ethics code so maybe need to get a refresher course on/
CLAIRE:
*laughs* for sure!
CANDICE:
If someone comes into your office and says "I need to tell you that my son or daughter has reported that they have molested this child, this address is where they are now", we have enough information to report that.
CLAIRE:
Definitely.
CANDICE:
If they come in and say "they told me they have an attraction to children and they haven't done anything, they are struggling with that, I'm struggling with that information", very very different. Very very different, right?
CLAIRE:
Yes, that's right, that's right.
CANDICE:
That's like... if I had a client that came in and said "I'm attracted to horses, I'll never have sex with a horse, I'll never harm a horse because I know that that would do harm to the horse but I just, that's my attraction", I'm not gonna call the police and report them for being attracted to horses, right?
But if they cam in and said "I have actually inserted things into the horse", that actually is something that I would look into in terms of reporting. Does that make sense?
I am not, again for people listening, comparing horses to children. But what I am talking about is vulnerable populations. Just like if someone came into my office and said "I have an elderly parent, you know, who I need to be honest, I hit it and smacked and I starved", I would be required to report that. That is an obligation especially if I have identifiable information about who their parent is.
CLAIRE:
Well, you are ethical and you are honest. There is a lot that aren't and, like you said, need a refresher course. *laughs*
CANDICE:
Yeah. And I think we're talking about treating human beings as such.
CLAIRE:
Yes.
CANDICE:
So going back again to your advice, I think, this is about unconditionally loving your child. I know that that can be heard hearing the information, getting educated, looking at actual research and getting support. Like you said, I think what we could do is offer, for those that are listening, if they want to reach out, they could reach out to us, you know, they can reach out to me, theglobalpreventionproject.org, go to our contact page and say "Hey, I heard Claire's interview. I would like to reach out to her. I am a parent.", we will connect those of you who are listening to Claire. Does that sound good to you Claire?
CLAIRE:
Would you like my email that they can feel comfortable emailing me?
CANDICE:
If you feel comfortable sharing your email on this podcast then let's do that.
CLAIRE:
Ok, I'm glad to do that. If everybody's ready, it's [email protected]. So the "pomap" is for parent of map.
CANDICE:
[email protected]
CLAIRE:
Right.
CANDICE:
I love that and thank you Claire. Is there anything else you would like to share to the global audience about any advice about being a parent, how to support your minor attracted child?
CLAIRE:
It just takes a while. It takes a while and everybody's different on how they deal and cope but just be patient with yourself and know you love your child and, you know, if they have the support that's great and they're not gonna offend on anybody but, I don't know, it's just... It's just that unconditional love and it will come, I mean, at first there just nights I just stay awake and cry. Just cry. All of the stages, it's sorta like stages of grief that you are grieving what you thought was your "normal" child and then you find out there's this demon and it takes a while, you learn coping mechanisms but, basically I think if parents or loved ones have each other for support, it's gonna make life a lot easier.
CANDICE:
I also want to clarify in case people maybe missed that and thought maybe you were calling your child a demon, can you?
CLAIRE:
No no! I just meant sometimes, you know, when you find out, you just feel like they're... you know, how can my child really have this attraction. How could my child that I've loved and supported, that I didn't notice this or whatever guilt or whatever you're feeling, it's just... it's normal and it just takes some time to work through but you will. And if you love your child, you know, it's just something that... it is what it is and I hate that saying but it is! It's just... they have this and it's almost like an acceptance. You finally get to a point where you accept it and then maybe that's when the support and the love can get a little bit stronger.
CANDICE:
Well again, I think studying the stages of grief, you just said it, where there's a shock and denial and anger and bargaining, you know, with your higher power and coming to that place of being able to accepting some, knowing that some parents and partners may never accept it and OK, I'm just going to say OK to that, you know. Because some parents, some partners may not be able to accept it and that's not my place to say anything about someone else experience. For you, the most important thing was to love your son no matter what and so you've done your due diligence being committed to gaining an understanding of him and his attraction as his parents who love him even when it's hard and even though it's hard. Is that true?
CLAIRE:
Right. And I think too, you have to realize that's just a part of them. That's not them. Because Elliott is a good person. He's a kind generous person and he's fun and he's intelligent and, you know, we do things together and have just, fun. And we talk but this is a part of him and it's just, once again, you just... this is acceptance. But, you know, it's hard and everybody's different and everybody takes different time but unfortunate for me that, you know, Elliott has this podcast and has this support and have a lot of friends now and I hope that I get some friends too!
CANDICE:
Yes, let's really hope that this podcast will help parents come forwards, partners come forwards to get the support they need.
Thank you so much Claire for your generosity and for offering your email to those that listening that needs support. And I know that, because there's such a huge following on our podcast that you will likely get some emails so/
CLAIRE:
I hope so, I hope so!
CANDICE:
Thank you so much for being on our podcast today, I really appreciate/
CLAIRE:
Well thank you for having me. I feel honored and I'm just so thrilled that you guys are there, for sure.
CANDICE:
You are so welcome. We're happy to be a support to other human beings.
With that, thanks for listening everybody! I hope you enjoyed todays interview with Claire and until next time!
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