| |
Sara - partner of a MAP - interviewed about the process of finding out and adjusting. CANDICE:
Hello everybody! This is Candice, your host, and I'm so excited to have Sara with us today. Hi Sara!
SARA:
Hi Candice, how are you?
CANDICE:
I'm awesome! How are you today?
SARA:
I'm doing very well, very excited to be here! Thank you so much for having me.
CANDICE:
Yeah! You're so welcome.
I'm really excited to have you on today! You know, for those who have been listening, Sara is a partner of a MAP. And we've had parents of MAPs come on, we've had married couples come on to our podcast to interview, but we have yet to have a partner of a MAP.
So I really appreciate you reaching out to us Sara and being willing to come on our podcast today.
SARA:
Yeah! Thank you so much!
After, I had a lot of... some really interesting issues came out of this with my partner and his attraction when I found out about it. And it started out as probably something I would describe as the worst thing that had yet to happen to me in my adult relationship but it actually turned into the best thing that has ever happened to me as far as personal growth, and for our relationship it was absolutely amazing. So I felt really compelled to share my story just to get a little bit of hope to people if they are in similar situation and just get the word out there that, you know, you can have a very healthy, loving adult relationship with someone despite something that may have given you a lot of fear in the beginning.
CANDICE:
I definitely appreciate that. I know there are people that are listening that are partners of MAPs and so, thank you for being brave to come on.
I liked us to start with, what I think a lot of people who are in relationships with MAPs, especially in the beginning, experience... which is what you said, it's this incredible fear and because of all the, I think, misconceptions and stereotypes and so on and so forth, so let's start there if you are ok with that Sara.
What was the experience like when your partner came out to you about being a MAP, or feel free to tell us if you found something and that's how it came out... What was that coming out process for you?
SARA:
Yeah, so the way I found out about my partner's attraction, the minor attraction, was actually coupled with a few other things that were really stressful and so, it wasn't just that I found out about him being a minor attracted. I also found out simultaneously that he had been compulsively using pornography as a means to cope with depression.
And, I do want to pause here and just clarify when I say he was compulsively using pornography, I do not mean in any way that that is related to the minor attraction. So he was not looking at anything illegal, it was not child porn. He is both attracted to minors and to adults and he truly is no-contact.
He experienced sexual abuse starting at about age eleven from a peer and so, from that experience, he actually is the most compassionate person I have ever met and I think his mentality towards that is "I will never do anything to compromise a child's childhood like mine was".
So I just wanted to clarify that because I think that's an important boundary when you are in a relationship. Because if your partner is doing something that can bring harm to you... in this situation, if he were looking at something illegal, if he were looking at child pornography, I personally would not have stayed because to me, that would have been too risky.
So I found out that he was compulsively using porn as a method to cope with depression, so there was an aspect of porn addiction there, and then through looking at that behavior, it came about that the minor attraction was there. And the way that I found out about the minor attraction was he would look at things online that were not sexual in nature, there were not pornographic, there were not anything that I would see and think "Oh yeah! That's definitely sexually titillating". But the subject matter of them was always young girls, age eleven to about fifteen. So this would be things like social media, streaming sites, just kind of everyday stuff.
So that's how I found out. And this was all coupled with probably about six month of me suspecting that something was going on or that he was hiding something and him lying about it and getting the impression that nothing was going on... deliberately hiding things and just, a lot of betrayals there.
So here I was, I found out all of this and... So that's a lot in itself just finding out that your partner has been looking at porn compulsively and that's the reason that he's been so distant, and you haven't been intimate and things are changing. And then, on top of that, he also lets you know that "Oh! By the way, I also have this other thing that I haven't told you either and we have to talk about that too. ยป
So it was a lot at once, it was a lot at once.
CANDICE:
I bet! And I will say... we actually have a lot of individuals coming to our other program before ending up at the global prevention project who share that they are struggling with compulsively viewing pornography or compulsively acting out sexually. And so through our process of doing a thorough bio-psycho-social-sexual evaluation, we, in some cases, will determine, and through the individual having a lot of courage, that not only, you know, do they have issues with sexual compulsivity or pornography abuse or addiction, on top of that they'll admit "Hey, I am attracted to minors". And so I like how you said it's not like one causes the other, or vice versa, and we're not saying that either, and it was definitely a lot, you know.
We do treat partners, betrayed spouses, and what you are describing is common where there's a lot of trauma attached to that. And we have seen in the research that, you know, partners that have sexual betrayal by their partner in this way oftentimes have symptoms of post-traumatic stress. It's very very traumatizing so I can only imagine, you know, having that information and then finding out that he has a minor attraction - and it sounds like, perhaps, hebophilia, where it's the eleven to fifteen range, the pubescent teens - again, at the time, not quite understanding what that was all about added to your trauma.
SARA:
That's right. Yeah, that's exactly right yeah! That's a good description. And, as I started researching things myself I came across the... what you described, the PTSD response, and I actually have an official PTSD diagnosis from about twelve years ago. And I also was abused in my childhood starting from, you know, basically the day I was born. So I grew up in a very abusive home and then I was raped very violently and almost lost my life and that is where the PTSD diagnosis came in. And so what I was experiencing when I found out what my partner has shared with me, all the symptoms started coming back for me. The same exact symptoms that I had twelve years ago that I thought I had conquered and that I thought I would never have to deal with again. So my symptoms were anorexia, almost immediately that started - I lost about 35 pounds in about a month - nightmares, rage, I just... I didn't want to be anywhere where there were people, in a public place, I was... essentially terrified to be out in public. So PTSD symptoms are vast, but those were my symptoms.
So I was really confused because, again, I thought I had conquered all of this. I thought that these were my past. But as I, you know, I kind of stumbled through this for about six months or so and my partner was really in no place to support me because he had never gone to therapy or treatment for depression, for his abuse, for the minor attraction, none of it. It was all very sealed away in a very tight box (laughs). So for him just telling me was absolutely the worst thing that could ever have happened to him I think at that point. So much shame for him, so much guilt, so much just... really... bad self image perceptions for him. So he was going through quite a bit himself.
So for, I would say, the first six to eight months, it was a living nightmare for me because I was kind of alone dealing with these things and on top of that, I didn't know it at the time but what I know now is that I was seeing my abuser or, you know, my past trauma, I was re-experiencing that through him. And so I was projecting all of these past fears and experiences onto him and so... I apologize *voice breaks* this part is a little emotional...
CANDICE:
Yeah, take your time.
SARA:
So, you know, living with that... is... living with a person that you perceive is going to hurt you, it's life changing you know *voice breaks*.
CANDICE:
I just want to say, first and foremost, thank you for being so brave to come onto our podcast and you're a true survivor.
And I know that other survivors are listening, whether they're male or female, no matter what they're story is, and one thing that you shared that's really powerful is : you can go through therapy and you can work through your PTSD symptoms and there still can be sights, sounds, smells and sensations that can put you back in a position or a situation as though you were a child again being abused or twelve years ago when you were being raped.
And so, it makes complete sense to me that when he had his coming out process, you literally went back into that place of being traumatized, and that really is quite normal and quite common for trauma survivors.
SARA:
Yeah, and thank you for pointing that out. It is... Now that I have done some research on my own and have really... now I understand. You're right! It is very common and I wasn't reacting abnormally or out of control. I was ok. And that was part of the big guilt that I felt because I didn't want to react in a way that would cause shame to him. Because inherently in my true, logical, grown-up self, I recognized that he is truly compassionate, he is a wonderful, wonderful partner, and wonderful human, and he's... he's amazing! But, through this lens of fear that I have carried around with me forever and ever, he became just a completely different person because I was judging him based on my own experiences.
So I didn't realize it at the time, probably because I was pretty, just... in a constant state of anxiety but, you know, now that I see it, you step out of that and say "Ok, how much of this is truly what's going on? And how much of this is my past experience, is my belief about the world, etc."
So I think that that is a really important thing to bring up too because your podcast is so, so very beautifully talks about how just because someone has an attraction that is deviant from the norm, it doesn't mean that they are going to cause harm, it doesn't mean that there is something wrong with them. There's nothing wrong with them. There's nothing. In fact, they're doing so much work to not do anything wrong. So, society judges people so harshly and so automatically without thinking, you know. Is this judgment even logical? (laughs)
So I think that there's a really important message for the partner who is minor attracted. Your partner may have a really poor response or not the response that you wanted but that does not mean that there's something wrong with you. That doesn't mean that you can't have a healthy relationship. That person is processing things through the eyes of their own lived experiences. It has nothing to do with you.
CANDICE:
How did you get to that place where you could say what you just said Sara? Because it sounds like right after you found out, you had the post traumatic stress responses. You mentioned that for six to eight months, it was a living hell. And so what transpired after that time to where you could say today what you just said?
SARA:
Well, I think it got so bad (laughs), it got so terribly unbearable that the only option was to either leave the relationship or to find a better way to deal with it. And I knew... I knew that what was going on had more to do with me than it had to do with him. I went to therapy and I started to go to individual therapy and my therapist was absolutely excellent in helping with PTSD and working through those symptoms but her very strong message from the very beginning was "you need to leave this relationship because it's too triggering for you". She didn't say "you need to leave this relationship because that's a terrible person who's abusing you". She said "you need to leave this relationship because it's too triggering for you". And so I knew inherently that's not what I wanted. I wanted to be in a relationship with this person. I loved him tremendously and he was the same person, it's just that now I knew about his attraction and now I knew that he had lied to me but it was because of all the shame and the guilt. So I knew that everything was pointing towards me, you know, this was my thing to work through.
So it's really easy to try to blame other people for what we're experiencing but I knew that even if he did change, even if he completely, you know, obviously this is not possible but even if he completely... was never attracted to anyone under the age of eighteen, ever again, or even if he was honest and never lied again for the rest of our relationship, it really wouldn't matter. I would always find something that would trigger me, it would always be something. So if I left the relationship, that would continue in all of my other relationships. It wasn't about the relationship. It was about me. It was about me and my beliefs.
CANDICE:
Let me think about that Sara, because there's a lot to think about.
SARA:
You know, something that is (laughs)... I've shared that thought with my therapist as well and so I fell like maybe there's... I don't know if your having some conflict with that but she definitely had some conflict with that because her point of view was, well, you know, you're potentially putting yourself in harm and...
CANDICE:
Oh! I want to be clear Sara, I'm actually not having a hard time with that at all. I think/
SARA:
Oh! Ok!
CANDICE:
Yeah, sometimes I'll pause because there just a lot of information shared and so, one of the thoughts I had was what was that you did need from your therapist, right? Because she shared with you what she thought you needed when that wasn't what you needed.
And so for those therapists that are listening, let's educate them, right? It's like what would have been helpful for her to say to you or how could she have shown up for you to give you what you needed because for you, and this is how we operate in our center, if our client is choosing to stay in a relationship, you know, we can talk about the dangers and the risks. What I want to know from you is what would have been helpful for her to say in that moment... instead of "you need to leave because it's too triggering or traumatizing".
SARA:
Yeah, yeah! That is an... that is absolutely great, I totally missed that point (laughs). You're very good at this Candice!
Yeah, that's a really good question and I will answer that in just a second when I had a thought... We also - "we" being my partner and I - we went to couples' therapy and had a bad experience as well. So that's probably something really really good to talk about too.
CANDICE:
Ok!
SARA:
So from my therapist, what would have been really beneficial to hear instead of saying that I should have done something or I shouldn't have done something, is to... I think in the very beginning, to, number one, just ensure that I really am OK because I had anorexia, I had an eating disorder for... from the very first time I saw her and she never picked up on it. Of course I masked it very well, and I never brought it up, but just really taking time to ask me how I'm doing. You know, "what are you feeling?". What do you want out of a relationship? What are you feeling when you think of staying with him? What are you feeling when you think about leaving him? Really to help me work through those emotions. Not taking it on the surface.
CANDICE:
Ok. So more open into question, right? Instead of "You should", more like, yeah "What are you feeling? What are you experiencing?". And I... this is something that we do in our programs as well, in terms of when doing an intake assessment or evaluation, it's asking those questions. We don't wait until our client tells us whether or not they have an eating disorder. We are asking, you know, "do you have an issue with over-eating, under-eating, depravation, restriction" those types of things, even if the individuals come in to us because they have, you know, a workaholic for instance, right? That's just doing a thorough assessment to understand the whole person.
And so you're coming to her... Perhaps you've been working with her for a very long time on relationship issues or even depression, you know, just general depression. And throughout your process of working with her, this came up in your relationship. Still, during that intake assessment it's helpful to ask all those questions about you.
Because a lot of our clients come in and they don't have a big window of tolerance so they are very anxious, they're very numb to the world and if we're not asking those questions, they're oftentimes not going to share. Not because they maliciously or intentionally want to be secretive, but because they're, in their own experience, most often you know depress, anxious, traumatized as it is, showing up, wanting us to help them. And so, I loved that you were able to know inside that for you, even though her suggestion was "you need to leave because it's too triggering", you knew what you needed. And I also commend you for telling her that because that's the only way, as a therapist, she could help you by you saying "Hey! No, I need you to know, you know, here's my feedback about that too". That's great that you did that as well.
SARA:
Yeah, and that really was... I'll admit that was a hard thing to do because you're going to this person assuming that they're the professional and you really do take what they say almost at law at first, you know. "Well my therapist said that so I guess it's true!" or, you know, "that must be what I need to do" but I just... there was conflict there. There was conflict there. I knew that it would not serve me well to leave the relationship in such a shambles. I at least wanted to get to the point where I could come to terms with it and that I wasn't angry. So I wasn't completely writing off that it was not the greatest idea for us to be in a relationship because if we'd continued like that, I mean, that would have been bad for everyone, but I didn't want to leave in... kind of in the froze of it because, again, I just wanted to get to the point where I could see past my anger and all of those really intense emotions to see exactly what was going on inside.
CANDICE:
So having some clarity. And it sounds like there was this pile up because it wasn't just a betrayal, which I want to acknowledge really is valid and real with his acting out, with his compulsive pornography you know, the secrets around that, the lies and so on and so forth, and that's valid. But you know, on top of that again, you're finding out about his non-exclusive attraction.
And so, it sounds like for you, you wanted to wait to get some clarity and you did. You two actually sought out some couple's therapy and... tell us what happened there.
SARA:
Yeah, we... so, initially, when all of this happened and I found out about the attraction and the compulsive behavior around porn, we sought individual therapy for about... about three or four months. And then, we went to couple's therapy. And, couple's therapy was ok. It wasn't really constructive in my view. There was nothing... it was kind of a referee, a match in my mind because she would try to mitigate me becoming enraged versus him feeling shameful and it was just kind of this... I always left just feeling icky, feeling worst than when I got there. And so, we actually stopped going to couple's therapy for that reason and we decided that he, my partner, needed to work a little bit more on his own and then we would revisit couple's therapy.
So he continued to go to the same therapist that we have gone to for couple's therapy. And, at some point, he had a session with her and up to that point, she have been mostly supportive actually. Her response to him telling her that he had this minor attraction, she really didn't bat an eye, she didn't, you know, said that she couldn't help him. She didn't say any of that. She really helped him work through that. And I think that was really instrumental for him because he told someone and they didn't react in a negative way. But after a few sessions delving into that, she changed her view a little bit - actually a lot - and she told him that he needed to see a specialist, meaning someone how treats offenders and that he really should never have children. And she may have said something also in there too but... that was so... that was like a boom drop because we have been... at this point, we're months into this and that's not something that had ever crossed my mind. I never saw him as someone who, you know, I could never have children with. And so again, there's that... "well this specialist, this therapist is saying this so it must be true!" and so that was a huge set back for both of us because on top of all this trauma that I'm working through now, I'm kind of grieving the loss of possibly never having children if I stay with him. And he's feeling worse than ever about himself because now he's thinking "Oh my God! I..." you know, "What do people think about me? What does she think I'm going to do?" you know?
So that really actually turned into something that was good for our relationship though. Because eventually, after the dust settled, we did talk about it and we both came to the conclusion that that was just absolutely ridiculous. There is no reason why he cannot be a father. Again, one of the most... The most compassionate person, caring person that I know, and he absolutely has that heart of an abuse survivor that says "never will I ever do what was done to me".
So that was a very very... maybe re-traumatizing situation, I'm not sure. But it certainly was very difficult to get through that and hear someone really be biassed against minor attraction, it's what it came down to.
CANDICE:
Well I think biases... I think also clinicians based on their own set of judgements, their own histories, just automatically assume that a minor attracted person is automatically a sex offender. And so, again, we know, and I say we... I think there's a lot of clinicians, a lot... well, there's a lot more in the prevention realm that know that just because someone has a minor attraction doesn't automatically mean they're going to sexually harm a child. So that therapist, sadly, gave poor advice.
And what we do know is if you put someone who is not a sex offender in treatment with sex offenders, it can actually do more harm than good, and so, you know, which your partner is not. He has an attraction and that does not mean action.
One of my latest sayings right now say, kind of go into my season of presenting nationally on minor attracted persons is : MAPs are human beings, they are not human doings.
SARA:
I like that! Very good.
CANDICE:
And so for us to automatically assume that a MAP is a human doing harm, you know, abusing a kid, is just flat out ignorant.
And so, what I love about this is for you and your partner, you both had enough well worth out to say that was ridiculous, that's just terrible advice. Yeah, I mean, just because you have an attraction doesn't mean you shouldn't have children.
SARA:
Absolutely yeah, and I wish there was more people who understood that. And, you know, that goes for... gosh! There's just so much judgement in the world against so many groups of people and, you know, I love a MAP and so I'm particularly passionate about this one. But it's just so important to see people as people like you said, not for their attractions or not for the things on the outside, the surface stuff that they do, but who they really are and just really try to see things through a way of love and acceptance versus your own fears and judgements blinding you.
So, yeah, I really, really love everything that you are doing to bring awareness to this. My own partner has... I've seen first hand the terrible, terrible life long affects that those judgements and biases and just terrible assumptions about the minor attraction has brought him. And the real truth is that something happened to him at an early age that probably influenced this. In his situation, I'm not saying that's always the situation, but in his situation, if you look deeper at who the person is, something happened in his childhood that affected this and, you know, out of his control, that's all there is to it. It's nothing that he's choosing. Even if something hadn't affected is attraction, if it were just inherent, or if it were biological, if he was just born that way, again, you know, it's nothing that he's choosing to do because he is trying to be a violent person and abuse people. It really is just a part of who he is and I choose to love all of him *voice breaks*.
CANDICE:
Yeah and I just want to say again, thank you for having the courage to come on out podcast and to talk about your relationship and the process that you've gone through with him and with therapy and you know. It just takes tremendous courage Sara.
And so, as we wrap up for today, where're you two at? It's sounds like you're together. Are you celebrating any anniversaries? Are you planning on having children?
Where are you at today?
SARA:
Yeah! We're better than we ever have been. We've been together six years and our six years anniversary was in April/
CANDICE:
Awesome!
SARA:
/so that was a big milestone and the future is incredibly bright. He has matured in a lot ways, in a lot of positive ways. He was really opposed to commitment and mariage and kind of thinking about children and all of that before he went to therapy. But now that we've worked through all of this, he is so open to that and I just feel so supported by him and I'm able to be much more loving towards him and... You know, we have our moments, of course, but I am so looking forward to a future with him and... Yeah, this brought us closer than ever.
And I do want to say, if there are any partners out there who are going through the same thing, or if there... Well, let me just say, for partners, I just want to give the message that there is hope, that you will feel better about this, and that you can work through this. You know, if you are struggling with the aspect of this related to your own self image, that's something that I did struggle with after I got through all of the, you know, the survival mode symptoms, was, you know, "Well I will never look like that" or, you know, "how am I supposed to compete with that" and the answer is you're not. You're not supposed to compete with that. You are a beautiful, wonderful person, no matter what, and if your partner sees that in you, sees your worth, they can have that attraction but they can simultaneously be incredibly attracted and loving and nurturing and have a wonderful relationship with you two.
And for the partner who is minor attracted, I think the biggest message is that if you haven't told your partner, please do. It is so much better to tell someone upfront than for them to discover it on their own and immediately jump to all of these conclusions and let their imagination wander off (laughs).
So, if you can have a conversation with your partner and your partner is truly someone who loves you, I bet it will go pretty well. But if you are afraid to tell them and cover it up and then it comes out as this big thing, and you've been lying about it, that just adds a layer of complexity that neither one of you really need to deal with. So, you know, it's a decision that whenever you're ready you will do, but if you do have a partner, I think it is important to let them know about this because it is a big part of who you are and they do have a stake in your life if you're in a serious relationship.
CANDICE:
Well I definitely appreciate your words Sara, and I want folks to know, there is so much support out there too, you know. If you are unsure about that support, go to our website The Global Prevention Project dot org, we got a lot going on. But you can also go to our contact page, you can email our prevention team to get more information. There's VirPed, there's B4U-ACT that's a great support to MAPs. We have two weekly call-in MAPs group. Especially if you are struggling or not really sure how to share with your partner, you know. There is a lot out there so please reach out to us. And for partners, there is support for you too, you just have to find the right support.
So on that note, Sara, thank you again so much and please thank your partner for being supportive of you being on our podcast today. We so appreciate it, and we appreciate your courage.
SARA:
Yeah! Thank you so much for having me and thank you again for all the work that you are doing. It truly is meaningful and... I know that your podcast alone has helped me get through some of these trying times. So thank you so much Candice.
CANDICE:
You're so very welcome!
Thanks everybody for listening, until next time! See ya! | |
