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I was a very confused teenager, and I actually went from being straight in my own mind to being gay. And, you know, then being a pedophile... CANDICE:
Welcome to The Prevention Podcast. I'm hour host, Candice [surname]. You know, we have been recording and interviewing many anti-contact, non-offending pedophiles, as well as researchers, throughout this podcast. And, like I've said before, I did not intend for us to continue interviewing this population. I thought we might interview four, maybe five, and then move on to a different topic. But as of today, we are now downloaded in forty-one countries. And so, this has completely gone viral, which tells me that the message is so needed. And I'm speaking of the message. Today we have with us Jakob, who's using an alias. He's from Sweden. So I want to welcome you, Jakob.
Jakob:
Thank you.
CANDICE:
And, Jakob, would you say that the words, "anti-contact, non-offending pedophile" apply to you?
Jakob:
Yes, it applies to me because I have never hurt a child, and I have never intended to hurt a child, even though I'm attracted to them. So...
CANDICE:
Yeah. So, I appreciate you saying that. And today we're going to get to know you, so that the global community can get to know you. Because, as you've probably been listening to as well, Jakob, my goal is to educate the global community, that just because someone has an attraction to a child, or an attraction period, doesn't automatically mean they're going to cause harm to somebody.
Jakob:
Yes, I mean, that's true. And in the beginning, when I realized my attraction, I thought a lot about that. But then after a while, I felt like it was even too banal for me to think about that. Because it was just something that was so easy for me not to do, and not to think about that I want to do, that it was not an interesting question for me, in my life.
CANDICE:
When you say, so for you, do you feel like it has actually been easy for you to acknowledge, okay, so I have an attraction to children, and I'm not going to do anything with it.
Jakob:
Well, I will not say it was easy for me to acknowledge my attraction, because I am 24 now, and I was 22 when I acknowledged it to myself, and it was actually a really weird experience, because, this might sound weird, but there was this teacher at Oxford who once argued that it's not so much that you change your mind, as much as it is that your mind changes you. And that was really the experience I felt like, because I was just walking home from school, to my parents', and I didn't intend to think in my mind, but I did, that just accept to yourself, that you are a pedophile. And before that, I had never fantasized about kids. I had never looked at kids in a sexual way or anything, but I just had this thought in my mind, and it was like, a really scary experience. Then I just got home. I opened up my laptop, and I wrote down on the computer a sort of diary, you could say, that now, today, I just realized I'm attracted to kids. And then, I don't know what happened, I just got really tired. And then I went to bed, actually.
And I must have forgotten to close it down, because when I woke up, there was just like, my mother father, they were just like, they looked at me in a way they had never looked at me before. And my father was like, we have seen it. And at first I was like, confused because I had just woke up, so... And then they really confronted me about it, and at that time, I didn't really understand what it meant to myself. I just know that that was what I thought, and what I had written down on the computer. And them my father began to like, talk to me in a way he almost never talked to me before. And said like, you know, I cannot let this go, and I have to tell the authorities. And he just attacked me verbally. And I didn't really know what to say or do. But I just said to him, well, if you say this to anyone, I will kill myself. And it actually ended really bad. Me and my fatehr, we ended in a fight, but... So, that was the coming-out-to-myself experience. And looking back, of course, I could wish for myself a more easy coming out experience, you could say. But that was my experience, and just to end about how it's been with my parents, just to mention that I want to say that after some months, you know where me and my father and my mother, we talked a lot more about it, and they educated themselves about it. I helped them to educate themselves about it. And so, I just want to say that now everything is cool between us, and well, it's still something we don't really talk about, but it's not a problem in the family.
CANDICE:
Thank you for sharing that. I am so happy that you went into detaial about that, because I know that there are a lot of people listening that will will have similar situations or have had similar situations. And yeah, it makes sense that it would be shocking to your parents. And I'm also happy that they've come around to support you, would you say? Or is that too bold of a statement?
Jakob:
Well, at the time, well, I was a very confused teenager, and I actually went from being straight in my own mind to being gay. And, you know, then being a pedophile, and then, oh before being a pedophile, being bisexual, and then being a pedophile. So, and that's a really confusing experience to change, to have this change of mind about who you are. But before they knew I was attracted to kids, they had a hard time accepting that I was gay. But then, when they found out that I was attracted to kids, it was almost like they were cooler with me being gay. But then they were bad about me being a pedophile. So I would say that, I mean, we could talk about stuff, and I mean, I feel like they accept it. I will say that.
CANDICE:
Yeah, and I guess that was what I was implying. And they may not support it. And I think that's such a loaded term, so I want to be mindful in the language I use. And, as their son, they accept you as perhaps you are today. It's not easy, perhaps, but what i hear you saying is they an accept you today.
Jakob:
Sort of. Because I don't feel like I... Let's say, I was feeling really bad about this, and needed someone to talk to. I wouldn't choose them if you know what I mean.
CANDICE:
I do. I do. And if they knew, perhaps, that you were suicidal, or were going to harm yourself, would they show up to support you?
Jakob:
Yeah, of course they would. Yeah.
CANDICE:
And the reason I say that, you know, I, we recently saw on Twitter, that a teenager had ended his life because he was a pedophile, and had no support. And so what I really want everyone listening to this podcast to now, is if you have an attraction, and you are suicidal, you're not alone, and there's hope. Because, I don't, like you said, Jakob, you told your parents, I'll kill myself. Like if you tell anyone, I'll kill myself. And were you serious?
Jakob:
Yeah. I will say that having these thoughts have given the last couple of years, you know, um, sort of, like, accepting this part of myself has been really difficult, and, you know, of course, I've had to deal with a lot of social anxiety and depression because of this. And I just want to say that, you used the word shock, that your parents were shocked when they found out, and for myself it was also a shock, because as I say, you know, I hadn't before this consciously thought that this is who I am. So, it has been, what has been difficult for myself has been being comfortable with having thoughts that I was sort of born to have. And having an attraction I was born to have without feeling shame, without feeling anxiety, without feeling that I was supposed to feel anything else. That has been, that has been the obstacle.
CANDICE:
We see so many people that we treat at The Prevention Project that have minor attractions, specifically pedophilia, who have so much shame and depression, and also feel that, or have experienced that, shock that you just described. And so thank you for sharing that, because again, I really want those that are listening to this podcast to know that, you know, this is something that more people have, than I think our society realizes. And, like you said, you realize, well, I'm born with this attraction. This is something that I feel like I was born with. I started noticing as a teenager, and then here I am, at 22, and I'm having this coming-out process, and it creates this uprotting in my family, and even know I still struggle at times. And so, what would your advice be to those that are listening who haven't yet come out, or are in that process and are really struggling? What might you share with them, since you've been there?
Jakob:
Well, I think it's very interesting. When we post online, about people who just realized this attraction, and who say they feel really depressed about it, and then it's very interesting for me to read about it now, because now I'm so relaxed about it, that, but like two years ago I wouldn't be able to see that, you know, I just have to plan this all, and then everything's better. But I just want to say that, you know, I'm really surprised that I've been able to, by being more comfortable about this aspect about myself, then I feel like it doesn't hurt me the same way it used to hurt. But I, it's not one of those things where I feel that time heals everything, because I just know know that people who are gay and other people like myself, that this process of, let's say, pretending you're normal or trying to change things that cannot be changed, like this can go on for many years, and people just run themselves through the wall. Like, even after I had that experience with my parents, you know, I would go on dates with men and women, thinking that I could somehow make it work. But what ended up happening, is, you know, I just ended up in the bathroom, and you know, I just cried. Because I feel like I'm trying to make something work that, well, for me, just doesn't work.
CANDICE:
Trying to be someone you're not.
Jakob:
And trying to, you know, let's say, being in a relationship with an adult for me, having to show affection, that doesn't seem authentic, and doesn't seem honest. That's not to say that, you know, maybe at some point I could see myself having a life partner. But I just know from experience, that when I'm in that situation, sometimes I just feel a liar and somehow, having to be able to at some point say to your partner, that you know, when I went into this, I knew from the start that authentic, warm, feeling of connection, I knew that I would never be able to have that for you. And that seems like a very evil thing to say and to do to another person. But then, on the other hand, I feel like, well, if you just treat your partner well and, you know, you show them affection, and the way you can, I feel like, well, then no one can really call me a liar.
CANDICE:
Do you feel like, in terms of having a relationship with another adult, whether it's a male or a female, I don't know what you would be drawn to if that, like if you envision having a relationship with another adult, can you see yourself having a life partner perhaps, that supports you and accepts your attraction?
Jakob:
Well, when I was younger, I felt like it was more easy, because, talking with a lot of gays, I know it was the same of them, because, you know, the horniness you experience as a teenager is a lot greater than your sexuality. So, that's why I think it took a lot of time for me to realize about my attraction because, when I was a teenager, you know, I just felt attracted to people who were, you know, my age, but I think the way I could make it work, it would have to be if I formed, somehow, an emotional connection and maybe it would be with another person who was like myself. And I could be honest from the start. Or you know, it was an asexual partner, so we would maybe feel the same way to each other, and we wouldn't have to feel like we would have to pretend how we, that we felt something that we didn't feel.
CANDICE:
Yeah, I like that. I mean, I like that, I think it's great how you just explained that, you know, having an emotional connection with an adult, where you can be honest right out of the gate, even if you choose to be asexual with that person, you can still have that partnership. And we will be interviewing a couple who met... the gentleman is an anti-contact pedophile, met his now wife, and they actually have a really good relationship. And so, we've seen that, and we've heard from other anti-contact pedophiles who are able to do that. And it sounds like that's something that, perhaps, if the timing and person was the right fit, that that would be possible for you as well.
Jakob:
Yeah.
CANDICE:
One of the things that I wanted to, we ask this question a lot. I'm curious to get your thoughts on it, but we have seen, we believe that aspects of pedophilia are indeed sexual orientation. So we've seen that where it is, like you've said, there are biological underpinnings, there's research that's coming out and has come out in the last few years do show that, and we also believe that sometimes individuals will come to us, whether it's in treatment, or even share with us on the podcast that something indeed happened when they were a child, and they get stuck at that age. It's arrested development. And then they find as they get older, that without even being aware of that arrested development or having that stuck developmental period of time, that they end up being attracted to that specific age of the child. And so in treatment, when we begin to address what happened to them at that age, the attraction has changed for some individuals, where they'll say, I don't actually feel sexuall attracted any more, I find myself emotionally feeling attracted and connected. So I'm curious as to your thoughts on that for you and your own experience.
Jakob:
I want to say that, I don't want to call it sexual abuse, because, but I will just say that when I was a kid, um, when I was 18 I talked with this psychologist, and when I went to see her, I didn't intend what I was going to say, but, I, you know, I recently had, I was going through a really emotional period in my life, and you know, I had this sort of flashbacks occur in my mind, and I just went to see her, and then, as I said in the chat, I said I recently had some memories about my childhood, and then I began to cry. And she was like, what was that? You know, and I just, you know, I told her what happened, and what happened was, that, you know, when I was little, there was this woman who would bathe me, in the shower, and she didn't actually touch me, but I just remember thinking, please don't look at me like that. And then as a child, you feel so powerless. I just remember when it happened, that I would always feel very vulnerable. And I would always just think, you know, please don't do that. But again, I mean, she didn't touch me. She didn't abuse me. I don't want to go into the details. And also, I think this experience actually it just made it easier for me to be anti-contact, because something so relatively little, has hurt me so much. So I think that's why, you know, us pedophiles, the ones who are aware, who know we have to be careful, it's a very good thing that we are aware of ourselves.
And I don't think this experience with the woman, how hurtful it has been, has contributed to my development. It's very clear. Every specialist, scientist on the subject, says that the brain differences in pedophiles, actually think that they can occur over a lifetime. So I mean, the data is already out. I mean, it's an orientation that has been created before you are even born. That's my opinion. I think it's very interesting that there was this study some time ago, that that people who were pedophiles, they didn't want to say yes in a lie detector, most of them, when they were asked if they were abused. And I think that a lot of them, probably, were abused, and you know, a lot of abuse happens by people in your family. So, you know, it does make sense that, you know, if it is geneticly passed on, then it makes a lot of sense that, you know, if it's people who share your genes who abuse you, it makes a lot of sense that you also, not because they abused you, but because you share the genes of the people that abused you, that there seems to be this correlation between sexual abuse and people who were attracted to kids.
CANDICE:
Fascinating, Jakob. Thank you for sharing that. My hope is that in the next decade or less, and by all means 20 years, that we will have a lot of research that helps us understand more about pedophilia and attraction to children, and that the global community will not blindly throw out the label and misconceptions of pedophiles automatically being child molesters or sex offenders and really have an understanding that this is an attraction, it's a sexual age orientation, and that there will be some more acceptance. And I know that there are people out there that might think I'm crazy for doing these podcasts. And I really feel like you and others deserve to have a voice. Because what you're saying makes a lot of sense, to me at least, you know, being someone that is a survivor of horrific sexual abuse as a child. And you can relate, in that there was this way that this caretaker was looking at you, that left you feeling afraid, and left you feeling shame, that stayed with you. You know, we do also know that fear and arousal do get fused in the brain. That doesn't automatically obviously mean that everyone that, you know, feels fear and is aroused, is going to end up a pedophile. However, it's good for us to know that, in terms of our arousal templates. So yeah, just, I love this rich conversation, and I appreciate you sharing that.
Jakob:
Yeah.
CANDICE:
As we start to wrap up our conversation, is there anything else that you want the global community to know about anti-contact pedophilia, about you, this is your time that I want the global community to hear your voice. So, anything else?
Jakob:
I feel like the last couple of years for myself, my life, has really been about, you know, so, knowing that you will never experience, you know, your true sexual attraction, having a life where that can never happen, and you don't want it to happen. So, how do you find meaning without that? Well, you can still have love for your work. You can have love for your friends and so, you know, I just realized now that, you know, even though, you know, to some extent your life is limited, because of this, you know, also how honest you can be about who you are, because of society. You know that htere is so much of life still to be lived, you just have to find what you really want in life, and what you want out of it.
CANDICE:
Well, and I think along those lines, thank you for saying that, we really have a good, global network now of projects, that are out there and available. I know our prevention project here in Utah, there's Dunkelfeld, there's Before You Act in Maryland, there's, and Before You Act, you know, I mean that is a great organization that's misnamed, and I say that because the folks that actually work there will say gosh, you know, we're really doing mental wellness with the MAPs population. "Before You Act" may sound like we're trying to prevent the inevitable. So I really appreciate their stance. While We're called The Prevetion Project, that's because we're actually an umbrella. We have an umbrella of several programs. MAPs is one where we wellness support to, and so I want the global community to hear that, that we have a lot of good support out there for, you know, young men, young women, millenials, people of all ages that come out and say I've got this attraction, and I don't want to do anything to a child, I don't want to harm anyone, but I have a ton of shame about this, and I feel depressed, I'm suicidal, and I want some support. And so, we're here. And yeah, and I love how your theme today has been one of acceptance. You know, that's the beginning point for choosing to have the life that you want to live, it's by acceptance, acceptance of yourself.
Jakob:
Yeah, for sure.
CANDICE:
So Jakob, thank you so much for taking time to talk with me today. I really really appreciate our time.
Jakob:
Yeah. Yeah, thank you.
CANDICE:
Thank you! All right, listeners, thank you so much for listening to Jakob today, and until next time, let's continue to talk about it. | |
