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Powerful interview with Kiron, who was abused as a teen including being exposed to CP and found himself addicted, scared, with no where to turn. He was able to stop viewing CP and now works to advocate for child protection. CANDICE:
Hi everybody! Welcome back.
Today we have yet another courageous human being with us to talk about how he came to identify as a MAP as well as some of the struggles that he has faced, that he currently faces, and some of his fears around being a MAP that I think a lot of folks who are listening can relate to.
So, I just want to welcome you Kiron to our podcast.
KIRON:
Hey!
CANDICE:
You and I have had a chance to talk offline and I'm just really excited to have you on our podcast today. I think the global community, we have a reach now on all seven continents, so we are 66 countries, so a huge global reach, and there's a lot of MAPs, which are individuals, human beings, who are minor attracted, listen to us, as well as researchers, journalists, authors who write about the subject, sex educators, social workers, clinicians, so on and so forth.
This podcast is going to be a game changer Kiron. I don't know that you fully recognize that yet but here's why.
A lot of what you and I talked about offline, so many minor attracted persons are struggling with. So, I really want to really just start with your reality of seek help, something bad might happened. And I don't want to speak for you but if I reach out, I maybe be in the MAP community but if I reach out for help dot dot dot, you fill in the blank.
So let's start there. What's the fear for you that so many other MAPs experience.
KIRON:
Being considered a criminal. I don't want to be disowned. I don't want to feel like that person. I feel like if I get help, get therapy, they would demonize me in a way that I'm not and that's just too much pressure to live with for the rest of my life.
CANDICE:
Yeah and I can understand the fear in talking with, now, so many MAPs accros the world that feel the exact same way. I just want to say on this call to you Kiron that our program, The Global Prevention Project dot org, we support so many minor attracted persons for out MAP wellness program. Some who had similar struggle than you, which we'll get into. We don't demonize them. We don't criminalize them. We listen and we provide accurate, effective treatment and support. So, us, VirPed, B4U-act, the MAP Support Club, all here for you. A lot have free ressources. Don't Offend India is also an online program. I think the language, the titles of all of our programs maybe face some fear too. But I do know, Kiron, for being in this, there are a lot of really reputable programs.
So, with that, I just want you to know that I am not judging you. I am not criminalizing you. I don't want you to feel that way at all and I hope you don't, today on our call.
KIRON:
Yeah, I know that you are helpful.
CANDICE:
Thank you.
Let's now explore how you came to identify as a individual who has a minor attraction. Tell me about that, tell me about your journey.
KIRON: 4:45
Well I founded out in a way that I really wish I didn't. I was being shown theses [...] when I was a teenager and I slowly realize that I was actually attracted to the [...] being shown. When I was about 18 I think, I went in to get help for that. So I was online loOKing for support groups for pedophiles and I found VirPed and I really start to realize, I think, that I'm doomed with minor attraction.
CANDICE:
OKay, I do want to take a minute, Kiron, and just educate the global community and this also might be kind of an eye opener to hear me say what I'm going to say. I don't know if I talked about this, I may have with Earl Yearington when we did our podcast. There is a thing called arousal non-concordance. Before I say the next part about arousal non-concordance, you absolutely could very well identify as a minor attracted. In fact, that you are experiencing and you are saying that, so we are going to support that 100%.
There are a lot of individuals of all ages who are, sadly, exposed to child pornography. When I say "exposed", that means you don't want to see it. There're a lot of individuals of all ages who are curious or online, loOKing at porn and click, click, click, they end up looking at child porn. And they find they have a physiological response to what they see that's sexual, which is our body's way of saying it's sexual, and getting physiologically aroused. However, mentally, a lot of people actually mentally feel differently when they see it. So, guilt, shame, discuss, but physiologically, because they get an erection or they get wet, excuse me if that sounds graphic, they automatically assumed that, physiologically, if there's arousal happening then they must be dot dot dot. OKay. So, Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski is a must listen-to, a must read. Listen to her podcast, read the article where she talks about arousal non-concordance. And I am saying this to the global community.
Kiron, if you are interested in that, great. Because I do want people to know that there are a lot of individuals who actually get exposed to child pornography that actually, away from that, don't see children as attractive. They don't have minor attraction.
Now, some doing Kiron that you experienced, and I support that.
For those that are hearing me and it's resonating what I'm saying, great! Please explore that avenue.
So, back to you, Kiron. So you get online, you reach out and you... VirPed. And how does that experience go for you, reaching out to VirPed?
KIRON: (7:56)
Well, when I first started loOKing for support group and stuff, it was really scary. But I found that I was [...] with a lot of what I felt and I would feel a little better. I would hear other people's stories and understand that [...]. So gradually, after trying, I began to feel confortable with myself. I'm still not fully there but I'm in a place now where I don't feel just this miserable about having an attraction.
CANDICE:
Well I, you know... Truly, hats off to Virtuous Pedophile and... what we call VirPed, for creating such an incredible support community for individuals who have attractions to children, pubescent teens, post-pubescent teens, who say "you know, I want support for this. I'm scared. I don't know what to do" and creating a safe format that is truly supportive of individuals who don't want to harm a child or wouldn't want to harm a minor. So I love that you were able to find VirPed. And, as I mentioned, there are so many other incredible programs out there. We just interviewed Timothy with MAP Support Club and that's another one that I would highly recommend, and so many others too that are on our website.
So, you and I also talked about your struggle in that past. You know, you were exposed to child sexual exploitation material, which legally is still called child pornography. And let's talk about that because I think a lot of individuals who identify as having an attraction to children, wether it's pre-pubescent children which falls into the category of pedophilia, have struggle at time with viewing child pornography. And there's a lot of shame and guilt that's wrapped up in that. So let's talk about that for you, your struggle with that, and how you ended up stopping.
KIRON:
Well, you also want me to mention how it began?
CANDICE:
Yes. I know you talked about being exposed to it when you were a teenager. Was that when it officially began?
KIRON: (10:23)
Yes, so, I began to view stuff like that from when I was a teenager. I would, I guess, have some type of romantic or sexual relations with adults. And eventually, I [...] that were showing me material of children and I don't know why, but I felt like... that's when I went to loOK it after a while.
I really can't describe the feeling but I know I was really scared.
So I've been exposed to it by adults and even sometimes strangers that I wouldn't know. I remember being on website and a lot of them who were willing to actually give me [...] picture of children in my private message and stuff. And I don't know why but I just felt so into loOKing at that kind of stuff. So it became a habit to loOK at it and I don't think it [...] very long.
CANDICE:
Well, again, I... and I want to be clear just, Kiron, like you heard us... You said you heard one of our podcast, we've been doing this for quite some time. I am a huge advocate for prevention. I never will condone any sort of sexual abuse of anyone, especially children, and child sexual exploitation material is abuse for sure. And so I just want to really, I really want to break down what you're saying. So, how old were you when you were... what you describe as having romantic sexual relationships with adults? Where you an adult? Or where you underage?
KIRON:
That started when I was fourteen.
CANDICE:
OK, and how old were the adults that you are saying that you were having relations with?
KIRON:
18 and older.
CANDICE:
OK, yeah, and so you know, this gets pretty dicey. Again, I'm happy we're talking about this. This is dicey when we talk about consent and the age of consent. I know this will probably stir up a lot of controversy. Different states have different ages of consent.
And, were you wanting to have these relationships, sexual and intimate, with these older individuals who were consider adults, 18 and older?
KIRON:
I wanted to have a romantic relationship. Eventually one person that I knew in particular would try to get me to do sexual things that I didn't feel comfortable doing.
CANDICE:
OK, so what I want the global community to hear from Kiron is he was not, as this teenager, consenting to what happened sexually. And, that happens a lot with teenagers. There's a lot of confusion, bodies are changing, hormones are all over the place, and there's this curiosity, of course. There's this desire to have relationships, and not just friendship but relationships. And... so here you are, as this teenager, wanting to feel that, wanting to have this romantic relationship and then this person is pushing for you to do things that you didn't feel comfortable with.
Now, what I am hearing too is that they... did they convince you to do those things? The sexual things?
KIRON: (14:12)
I feel like I was in a place where I wanted the attention and approval of people. I think I felt very alone and I just wanted somebody to be with me. And I just wanted to feel normal. So I was seeking out a relationship with someone that I really didn't have feelings for, and in order to get approval from them, I guess I [...].
CANDICE:
Yeah, so, listeners, what we are talking about, and I know so many of you can relate to this. And as a trauma expert, I can speak to this as, here Kiron is teenagers at the time, wanting attention, wanting approval, wanting to feel normal, so seeks out this relationship with someone who he doesn't necessarily have feeling for and then, I'm going to use this language Kiron, and then is abuse. Because when we don't consent, even if we are a relationship with a same age person or around the same age and we do not consent, it is abuse. And, we can even loOK at older individuals who are seeking out someone who is a teenager, there's a reason why they do that. Now, we can say, maybe it's a mental connection, emotional connection, sure, OK. Let's take out the lot of age and consent and just talk about that, yeah, sure, maybe mentally an 18-19-20-21 year old feels like a fourteen year old emotionally. OK, still illegal. And, I always wonder what is going on with that adult to seek out someone who is younger to do that. And especially when you didn't want to. And so I just really want to honor your story, Kiron, and sharing that I do know there's going to be individuals who identify as minor attracted who say "I listen to this. Same thing, similar things happened to me. I do not see myself as being abused. I do not see myself as being a victim". And my response is : OK.
But I'm on the call with you here Kiron, and I'm hearing you say, you said this is something this person was able to convince you to do when you didn't want to. So I just want to honor your courage again for sharing.
And I also want to talk about the vulnerability of teenagers getting online, connecting with strangers and these adult sharing these websites with you where they are giving you these picture. This is where it's so scary, I believe, online for teenagers and children. I hear this all too often especially individuals who are autistic or have mental illness or other brain issues where developmentally cognitively, they're very young, get online, trust a stranger that share a file and then they are in trouble. And so that's what I'm hearing too "people showing me that material and feeling very scary" and then finding yourself aroused by it. Is that accurate?
KIRON:
Yeah.
CANDICE:
OK. So, Kiron, how did you stop viewing CSEM, child porn? How did you stop viewing that? How did you... What happened to get you to where you said ‘'I am done"?
KIRON: (17:59)
Well, things led to having a lot of images on and off they made me feel very paranoid and jolting. So I would always delete them but I think I was addicted to it. So I was trying to get more. But I would delete those too. And, I guess, with the guilt there's really [...] wanting to stop. I remember the last time I deleted a lot of images, but I tried to go back, my phone got hacked by someone so I just go rid of the phone and decide to never do that type of stuff again.
CANDICE:
Yeah, I think... there's so many things you said in that statement that I want to address. Let's start with addiction. So many of our human beings that come to our program share struggling being addicted to plane old porn, OK. So many also share escalating their addiction to child porn. That, for you listening who are researchers and clinicians, we need to figure out what we're going to do with the individuals who end up addicted to child sexual exploitation material because it is a reality. And I am thankful for you Kiron that you were able to, and have stopped, that you had that awareness how yucky, for a lack of a better word, made you feel, and that you were able to say "I'm not going back" so, kudos to you for doing that.
KIRON:
Thank you.
CANDICE:
Yeah, you have the entire world listening to you right now. What do you want to say to other individuals who have minor attractions who are scared to get support, to get help, to be heard, what do you want to share with the community?
KIRON: (20:08)
Well I don't think I'm very good at giving advice or support because I'm still struggling with the way I feel too. But I know that it's possible to fight this type of self [...], it's possible to be helpful and try to be a good person. Like myself, I like to protect children and I like to help them out. Like, I used to do activism on Twitter for a while, to help people feel better about themselves with minor attraction. And, it's not the end of the world basically. You have to learn how to distance yourself though, from the things that can make you feel bad.
CANDICE:
And I appreciate you saying that. It's so interesting because you said you are not one to give advice because you are struggling. But here's the thing, your interview today is helping people because of your experience in more ways that I'm sure you could ever imagine. And you also said that you want to protect children, that you used to be more vocal on Twitter about that, and helping other minor attracted persons. And, that it's important, that is all good piece of advice, to learn to distance yourself from the things that can be dangerous and risky and create harm. Which I'm guessing, you are saying things such as child porn.
KIRON: (21:38)
Yes for the [...] that other people give you that would make you feel confortable. [...] really have to stay away from people that would encourage you to things that... dating a minor, for example, is something that's OK for you to do.
CANDICE:
So distancing yourself from people that would encourage you to do the same thing that was done to you. Is that what I'm hearing? Seeking out someone that's underage, a teenager, a child, to date. And children and teenagers are different, so, if the global community think I'm conflating the two, I'm not. I'm just saying a child... someone might say "Oh! I'm 18, it's OK to date so come on Kiron! It's OK to date a 12 year old!" Right, that's a child. "It's OK for you to date a 13 year old" that's a teen. Yeah.
KIRON: (22:36)
No, not really [...] *laughs*
CANDICE:
Yeah. And so, yeah, you are cutting out a little so I hope the community can hear when you say that it is important to, in remaining, for you specifically, safe for you, that you are saying "I don't want to repeat what happened to me. I'm not going to listen to people who are saying and encouraging things that happened to me. I'm not going to do that because I believe in keeping children safe". Is that what I'm hearing?
KIRON:
Yeah.
CANDICE:
OK.
Well this has been a very informative podcast, Kiron. And you are an incredibly brave human being. I am really excited for our global community to hear this podcast and hear the layers of your experience which so many other individuals who identify as minor attracted can relate to.
Please reach out to me if there's a ressource you need or any support, and that goes for anyone listening. Our website offers a lot of ressources. If not getting support with us, we have names of other programs who are... that we endorse, who are safe and supportive and making sure that you are treated in a human way.
So, Kiron, any final words before we wrap up our podcast today?
KIRON:
Thank you for having me on. I'm glad to have shared my story. I don't know if I have any other things to say though, I just wanted to give [...]
CANDICE: (24:10)
Well, and I... You are very brave! And I hope you listen to this podcast when it comes out Kiron. Because I know that you're gonna... just by sharing your story, you're going to inspire a lot of other humans who are minor attracted to hopefully share theirs. So thank you again!
KIRON:
Thank you for having me on!
CANDICE:
You're welcome!
All right listeners! Thank you so much for all of your support. Please, be safe out there. Please let's love one another. We deserve to have peace and let's just treat each other with humanity and dignity and kindness so, with that, we'll talk to you later.
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