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They said: There's no representation for MAPs. It's sex offenders, it's victims of sexual assault—so the stories they gave me ended up in this book.
This interview is about the book Past the Dark Field. You can find out more about the book at GoodReads.
CANDICE:
Welcome to the prevention podcast, I'm your host Candice. I'm really excited today. You know, we have so many cool people that come on to our podcast that reach out from all over the world, wanting to share their stories, and today I have with me a woman by the name of Sheila who is an author who has written a book, titled ‘Past The Dark Field'. So I want to welcome you Sheila.
SHEILA:
Thank you! Thanks for having me!
CANDICE:
Yeah, absolutely. I would love to start off, you know, this is the first time someone reached out and said "I've written a book about minor-attracted persons and I'd love to come talk about it". So, I would love for the global community to know about you first, Sheila. Who you are, and what really inspired you to take on a piece of work such as this.
SHEILA:
Who am I? So, I have several hats. My first hat, actually, the most inspirational hat, is that I tutored children in English. The other hat that I wear is that I'm a writer. Nobody really publishes my stuff. Everybody says I'm quite good, but they're not fond of the topics I choose.
CANDICE:
Mmmm.
SHEILA:
If I were to tone it down... No. I'm not that sort of writer. It's - It's more of a hobby for me.
CANDICE:
Okay!
SHEILA:
So, I have self-published, because I don't want to fear the subjects that I've taken on. As for why I did this book, well there's the obvious, you know, in my tutoring job, I understand why we now have all these rules about protecting children. But I think society has kind of gone from one end of the spectrum to the other. We have the stranger danger, and teachers can't hug children, and there's a children's musical group, The Wiggles, they had this special hand pose during all photographs, so that it was proof that they were not assaulting children. So, this kind of got me thinking, and I've always been interested in sexuality. My last book is called To Be Human Again, and it's based on Dr. Krafft-Ebing's ‘Sexualis', which was a psychiatric text in Germany from the 1890's.
CANDICE:
Hmm!
SHEILA:
And, the stories are based on the case studies in there. I was looking at his section on pedophilia and thinking "This is brilliant – nothing has changed, you know, for 100 years. We need to do something about this", but I couldn't find research that I thought was reasonable. I couldn't find enough. So I didn't include pedophilia in To Be Human Again. And, just after To Be Human Again was published, I read Dr. James Cantor's article in The Walrus, that was in September 2016, and I'm thinking "This. This is the attitude we need to have to fix what's obviously been a problem for over 100 years. If Dr. Krafft-Ebing is saying this on the other side of the world in 1890 and we still have this problem in 2016 in North America, something needs to be done. So, you know when the universe conspires against you? I just started noticing a whole lot of anti-pedo comments on social media and stuff like that. So, I decided, "I'm going to do this. I'm going to write a book about pedophilia". Now, what I was looking at was, at the beginning, I was thinking more of a prevention sort-of angle.
CANDICE:
Can I ask, Shelia, what was your reason behind that in the beginning, the prevention, if at first you were thinking of doing it from a prevention lens, what was your thoughts on that?
SHEILA:
That was the only research I was really getting. No information, there was nothing about the concept that somebody could be attracted to a child and not have the threat of acting on it. That didn't seem to exist in the textbooks I was reading, stuff like that. But, when I got on Twitter and it was Ender that I contacted because he had all these really great articles, when I ran out of articles to read I said "Have you got any more?" and he's like "Hmm! How do you feel about talking to real minor-attracted people?". So he gave me access to a whole community, and this completely changed the book. Completely. In the end, I've talked to—well over 50 people have given me their personal stories, plus people giving me tips . I'd say probably closer to 100 MAPs have contributed to this book in one way or the other.
CANDICE:
That's great! That's a lot! That's wonderful!
SHEILA:
That's a lot! There are a lot of MAPs in the world, yes.
CANDICE:
Oh yeah, there's more than 100 as well, but that's great that you got 100 that responded!
SHEILA:
Yeah. So, one thing they said is: "There's no representation for MAPs". It's sex offenders, it's victims of sexual assault, so the stories they gave me ended up in this book. Obviously the book is fiction; there's no one person's story that is one chapter, none of that. No. The whole conglomeration put together became the book.
CANDICE:
I think what I like about the book though, as far as what I've read so far, is it may be based on fiction and just of all the, you know, non-offending pedophiles that I've worked with, or minor-attracted persons, it really does speak to each of their stories, whether its a female MAP or a male, it really does speak to their experience. And so, even if it is based on fiction, I want the global community to know that what you're reading has a very real flavor to it, in terms of the person's experience. Wouldn't you say that too, Sheila?
SHEILA:
I think one of the best compliments I've had, and actually have had it from several people, is "it made me cry so much to see myself in this book that I had to put it down for a few moments" and that's, yeah, finally to have representation of somebody who isn't a monster.
CANDICE:
Yes. Well it definitely brings that level of understanding, if you will, which is so needed. There is MAP representation in your book, for sure, and I love that you were able to find those individuals through Ender, which, I don't know if you've seen anything from him lately, but sadly, he was completely shut down in so many areas, which I truly, truly, believe is sad, because he was, I would say, one of, if not the biggest advocate for child sexual abuse prevention and getting the word out there about MAPs. I think people really, not to take away from Todd Nickerson, who is, I think just a great human being and all, so a non-offending MAP, and who has been out there for a very long time, um, I don't want to take away from those MAPs who really planted their flag early on, but I do want to say it saddens me that we don't see or hear from Ender anymore.
SHEILA:
Yes, I do miss him a great deal. Yeah, the fact that he would consider offering me - he created a special space in his MAP support chat so that people who wanted to talk to me could safely talk to me. So, we need Ender back!
CANDICE:
I know, and I hope, Ender, you're listening to this, and if not, folks that know you can share that we do, we missed your voice in the global community, when we're talking about non-offending MAPs and yeah. We just miss your voice. So, what will people read if they get a hold of this book? Maybe you can read - I think we talked about this - reading some excerpts, so people can get a taste for what they're going to read, but what do you hope that people will get out of this book?
SHEILA:
What will they get out of it? I think, actually, I'm going to—let me—hold on a second. So, David, who goes by @filledwithnoise on Twitter, he wrote possibly the most extensive book review.
CANDICE:
Okay.
SHEILA:
And he actually critiques the writing, which I really really appreciated. So, he wrote: "I'd recommend Past The Dark Field to anyone willing to explore the potentially uncomfortable subject of people living with pedophilia. I also think that minor-attracted readers will get something out of this book. And for younger MAPs or those just beginning to address their attractions, having that kind of outside insight is valuable beyond what I can express". So I think, certainly, anyone who is interested in the topic, or, personally I would suggest if you're afraid of the topic, this is a safe way to approach it. You can, you know, read a little bit of the book, put it down, digest it, come back whenever you're ready, sort of thing. David came up with another idea, that possibly this would be a good way to tell your parents, tell your partner that you're a MAP. That maybe giving them this book would be, you know: "Here, we have something to talk about".
CANDICE:
Have you heard of anyone that has done that, Sheila? Where they used your book as a way to start a conversation with a loved one that's a MAP?
SHEILA:
Not yet, not yet. It's only been out 11 days.
CANDICE:
Okay! So not very long, not very long, but I really think, you know, if you do use that as a forum in which to talk to a loved one, please reach out to us and let us know, because I think that's important, you know, if this can be used as a helpful tool to get your voice heard among family or among safe individuals. Why not? Right?
SHEILA:
Definitely. Definitely. And the hope is also that this might be used as, sort of an introduction for professors who are teaching sexuality courses, or if somebody is considering going into therapy with people with minor attractions, this might be a broad view of what you would encounter, because very few, literally, I think, two of the people I talked with, were somewhat concerned about not offending. Everybody else said that it's never been a problem, and all these people who say "Get help!" - they do need help, but not with not offending. It's with the depression, the isolation, the guilt, anything like that. So if we can get sexuality students to read this, that might open up a broader view of what a therapist might need if they're going to attend to minor-attracted people.
CANDICE:
Well I agree, I think it's a great resource, and, you know, I think of our podcast, and our program, and there's Stop It Now!, and there's VirPed, and there's so much out there, why not add, again, this book, as another resource. Not just "We're MAPs" but also family members, also students, sex therapists, sex addiction therapists, sex offender therapists, clinicians in general. I think there definitely is a need to educate the global community that we have a very large population of adult and teenage minor-attracted persons, whether they're female, male, identify as trans, non-binary, who need support for stigmatization, for, you know, how do I deal with a society that considers me to be a monster based on this attraction, not action, how do I deal with my attraction, my suicidality, my anxiety, how do I have a relationship with a same-age person when I have these attractions? How do I live a "relatively normal life and existence" in a world where I have this attraction that is deemed a monster, truly because of a label, and so, I love that this is out there, and a huge and wonderful tool to educate people that a minor-attracted person is not a monster. It could be your son, if could be your daughter, if could be your partner, it could be your colleague, it could be a friend, and you need to be open to that.
SHEILA:
I think what the outside world doesn't understand, because they don't talk to people about this, in all the research, I did not meet any monsters. Nobody had horns, nobody had fangs, they're just not out there. What we have created in our nightmares doesn't exist.
CANDICE:
Well, I agree, and I would say, as you were talking, I was thinking about: "who have I met?" and highly, highly, highly intelligent people. I mean, TNF, @TNF_13 is on Twitter all of the time, and he has a CSA prevention website, and he is one of the most intelligent individuals I've ever met. He has been a guest blogger for us, identifies as a minor-attracted person, and, you know, I need these really really intelligent people who say "I have this attraction", and most of which will also say, like you said, "I have zero desire to hurt anybody. I just need help with my depression and the stigma", of the people that say "Hey, I'm scared", we say thank you too, for coming forward and letting us support you, and get you help, so that you can live a safe and offence-free life.
SHEILA:
Mmm-hmm.
CANDICE:
So, do you want to read, maybe one or two short excerpts? Any favourites of yours that you'd like to read?
SHEILA:
Sure! I should mention that there are two versions of this book. There's the full version, which has eleven short stories. There's also a teenager version, which only has five.
CANDICE:
Okay.
SHEILA:
The teenager one has no sex, note the book has no child/adult sex, but there is some adult sex in the adult book, okay? So the teenager version has nothing that somebody under the age of 18 couldn't handle. So I thought I'd do readings from two of those. The first one is the one that seems to catch people by surprise. The chapter is entitled ‘Aaron', and it's about nepiophilia. ‘Nepio' comes from the Greek word, I believe, for diaper, and it's an attraction for toddlers and infants, essentially. People hear the word, they really get freaked out. Something that, you know, even the most open-minded person has had problems with. But they read this story, and then they say, "That wasn't so bad. I don't understand the attraction, but, okay now I understand this person." So I thought I'd read the intro to this. This is a letter written by Aaron to Ezekiel:
Dear Ezekiel,
This is one of those letters the person it's written to never gets. Despite the gender problem (It's okay to think of me in a dress. I'm man enough to be okay with that.), I'm a heroine from a classic novel, writing to her dead soldier lover, and I'll burn this letter so only God and the angels know what I've written.
And the Devil, too. Can't forget him.
Why am I writing a letter you'll never get? Because of the news today. It had nothing to do with you. It was just about a teenager who had committed suicide. They said there was no obvious reason for the guy to have killed himself because he was a grade-A student and he had a girlfriend and he wasn't bullied that anyone knew of. As if those were the only reasons to kill yourself.
I think the main reason people kill themselves is because they think no one loves them.
At some point in your life, you'll probably feel like no one loves you. Not so. Along with the usual mother/father/grandparents/brother and sister/friends/other people you've impressed along the way, I loved you. A lot.
I never want you to feel like no one loves you. I don't care what your grades are or who you're having sex (or not having sex) with. Never kill yourself.
While I'm giving orders, never hurt yourself, never hurt others on purpose, and don't forget to brush your teeth. I'm starting to feel like an old man, so I can say these things.
I loved you.
I love you.
At least, I love the memory of you. I haven't seen you in 15 years, 4 months and 21 days. I don't know for sure if I would still love you, but I think I would. I don't know if you'd still love me.
We used to love each other.
Are you doing the math in your head now? Yeah, you were only 11 months old when we met. Actually, you weren't even quite 11 months. I was 16. Your parents needed a babysitter for a few days a week after school and sometimes in the evening so they could go out. It was kind of funny because your dad was the one who didn't want to leave you. Your mom had to haul him out by the arm, every time. For every text I got from your mom, I got 8 from your dad. As I'm sure you know by now, he's the kind of guy who worried about your temperature and the texture of your clothes and how many milligrams of vitamin C you got every day. Your mom, back then, was a little more chill. She said parenting included letting you fall down a couple of times so you learned how to pick yourself up. Your mom and dad actually once argued in front of me because she let you eat something without washing your hands first.
Anyway, I knew from talking to your dad on the phone that he was the one I'd have to wow during the interview. You were asleep when I arrived, so I spent a little over an hour sitting on the deep red carpet in your jade green living room, being grilled about what I would do in certain situations.
I'd had a lot of babysitting experience by then, and even his crazy "hypothetical" questions had pretty obvious answers. Guess I passed his test, because he eventually left me alone with your mom and went to get you.
When you were brought into the room, you weren't even a little bit shy, even though you'd just woken up. Your wispy hair was still kind of stuck to your pink cheek, and your thumb was still stuck in your mouth, but you looked at me like I was a new toy—something to investigate. You couldn't walk more than a couple of steps, but you scrambled off your dad's lap and made your way over to me by holding on to the furniture.
I think I said, "Hi." I held a finger out to you, and you took it. You stared at me for almost a minute. Your eyes were a deep, steely blue.
That minute was harder than passing your dad's test, but I guess I passed yours, too. I picked up a board book from the pile on the coffee table, and you flumped down on your little ass, sucking your thumb while I turned the book to read it to you. When that book was done, you grabbed another book from the pile and flumped down on my lap. Your thumb went straight back in your mouth.
That was the best feeling I've ever had. No one has ever scrutinised me like that and then accepted me.
I wonder if that guy who committed suicide ever felt that. Probably not. Feeling that just once is enough to get me through my lifetime, I think.
I'll stop that one there, I think.
CANDICE:
Very powerful, thank you for reading that.
SHEILA:
You're welcome!
CANDICE:
Yeah, I just have to pause, I'm just so curious who listened, and yeah. I mean I think, really articulate and eloquent, and very humanizing on all fronts, right? This is a human experience, and again, you don't get a sense of a monster at all, right?
SHEILA:
No! As I said, there were no monsters that volunteered to speak to me.
CANDICE:
Yeah. Can you go on, Shelia, and share how that story ends? I realize that for time's sake, perhaps maybe not reading it, but for those listening and are curious and may not have access to your book right away.
SHEILA:
Okay, so after a lewd comment from his friends, which seems to come out of nowhere, Aaron realizes that he is in love with Ezekiel, and so he just stops babysitting, never goes back, never sees him again. Now, Aaron does end up becoming an ECE teacher, working comfortably in, you know, a group setting because he feels comfortable that there are always other adults there and groups of people, but yes, he does go burn the letter at the end.
CANDICE:
Mmm, okay. And so again, for the global community to hear, he, this is an individual, Aaron, who realizes during this experience of babysitting that he is in love with this baby and so says "I can't be around this baby anymore".
SHEILA:
But then, later, decides that he can be around other children. Even ones to whom he's attracted.
CANDICE:
And still remain a safe person. Yeah.
SHEILA:
Yes. None of the MAPs in this book are offenders.
CANDICE:
Yeah, I love that you said that too, and again, I think that's really important for our global community to hear. I think some people will hear that and say "Ahh!", you know, how can this individual be around children if he has an attraction? And, well, I'll just say that to you Shelia. How might Aaron be around children and stay safe? What are your thoughts?
SHEILA:
The argument that other MAPs use is that, you know, if you are a heterosexual man, do you rape everyone woman you're attracted to?
CANDICE:
Uh-huh, yep. I'm not saying yes like they do -
SHEILA:
The average person does not sexually assault everyone they're attracted to. That would make for a very messy society. Now, most of the research done on anybody with a minor attraction has been done on offenders. It's easy to access them, you know. The finances are probably a lot easier that way. Nobody's ever done the research on, you know, minor-attracted people who have not offended, you know. What do they actually struggle with? I expect there are more minor-attracted people than we think. I think possibly there are people who experience periods of minor-attraction that would end at different phases in their lives. So, yeah, there are probably all kinds of people who are attracted to children, working with children, and that's okay.
CANDICE:
Well, I will say, we're in the process at the global prevention project, which started last year, of being evaluated by researchers for all of our program. We have several different programs within our project. One of which is for non-offending MAPs. So we're excited to see what the results of that are. We're hoping to have those results, and a peer-reviewed research article come out in 2020. But you're right, I mean historically it's really been survey-research, I know B4U-ACT has a lot of survey research from minor-attracted persons who will share what they're seeking in treatment, what they feel is most helpful. But other than that, you're right, historically the research has come from sex offenders. So that's not accurate. It's not an accurate measure of what a non-offending person needs.
SHEILA:
Mmm hmm.
CANDICE:
I also agree with you that, and we say this a lot as well: If we're going to say an attraction is based on action, then okay, if you're a heterosexual male attracted to women, should we worry that you're going to rape every female you see? You know, and so, and then third, when you said that there's a lot of people around us that have minor attractions, I can speak to that, because this is how I got into doing what I do every day! You know, when I started out, Shelia, I was in private practice, thinking I was treating sex addicts and porn addicts!
And I have these men coming into my program saying, "Hey I'm addicted to porn, hey I'm addicted to sex, I can't stop", and then throughout the evaluative process it comes out that "I'm attracted to children", and I'm thinking, okay wait a minute, I'm not working with sex offenders. These are individuals in my community coming to me for an addiction, and this is coming out, which confirms to me that there are a hell of a lot more minor-attracted people in our world than we realize, and, so it's like, what are we going to do about it, you know? And I'm not speaking from a fear-based stance, because that's how our world has operated. I'm speaking from a humanitarian stance of ‘we get to provide everyone with services', you know? Everybody deserves to have mental wellness. Everybody deserves to feel safe and have support in their lives, so that everyone around everyone can live wholeheartedly, regardless of what their attraction is. You know, I really believe that, so thanks for letting me go on my soapbox today -
SHEILA:
Haha!
CANDICE:
- As I share that, but there was a lot to respond to with what you shared, and thank you for saying that you, too, respond in the way you do about ‘if someone has an attraction they're automatically destined to acted on it'.
SHEILA:
Of course not!
CANDICE:
Yeah, yeah.
SHEILA:
No, we have been banning things and creating taboos for thousands and thousands of years. It has not worked yet. Let's try something different.
CANDICE:
Exactly, and I think we are definitely headed in that direction, which is a good thing. So, again, I appreciate, I want to say your book again is "Past The Dark Field", and Sheila has written this book, for those of you that are listening. Sheila, where can folks get a copy of this book? Where is it available?
SHEILA:
So, right now, it's only available in ebook, it's on Amazon, Kobo, or you can go to my press, Salmacis' Press, dot .ca, and if you send me a message we can do an e-transfer, whatever. It will be available on print-on-demand at the end of March. I'm hoping to get it in audio, oh, possibly within six months, and ideally, everybody will want copies, so it will be available in actual print eventually, right?
CANDICE:
Hopefully yes! It sounds like there are a lot of ways that people can get it, which is great and we'll also make sure that we post it so people know how to get it, again for people listening, its called "Past The Dark Field". And Sheila, will you say your last name, so that people can know who you are?
SHEILA:
van den Heuvel-Collins
CANDICE:
Yes. Beautiful last name.
SHEILA:
Thank you!
CANDICE:
Yes! And also, I also noticed that the proceeds are going to specific foundation of which I know, I just want you to talk about it. So will you tell me, where are the proceeds going to and why?
SHEILA:
Okay, so let's be honest about this, half of them come to me, I put a lot of work into this. The other half is going to Prostasia, a group that I really appreciate, not that I don't appreciate all the other people making any effort toward this, but Prostasia is the only group that is focused on rights and research. So they are currently raising money for research on sex toys and child sexual abuse prevention. And the money will be going to that research so that we can figure out what sex toys might help people, what sex toys might be a problem, you know, because we know nothing. I really appreciate research!
CANDICE:
Well I think that's great, and I love that you said 50% will go to you, and it should! You worked really hard on this, and you're the author, and I also love that you chose Prostasia to get the proceeds for their research, because you know, I think one of the things we're seeing a lot of has to do with sex dolls, if we're having just an honest conversation. So I know Prostasia is definitely vocal about let's look at the research on that. Do sex dolls really cause somebody to escalate, if you will, into molesting an actual child or person, and there's no research. So, right now, the laws that are in place and being put into place about sex dolls, for instance, there's no basis for that. So I do appreciate what Jeremy Malcolm, and everybody at Prostasia is doing, and that's a little shout out for them. Yeah! Is there any other excerpt you'd like to read to us, as we kinda wrap it up for today, Sheila?
SHEILA:
Sure! Sure. So continue rocking the boat with the little...
CANDICE:
The boat's always rocked the boat on this podcast, so let's just -
SHEILA:
I love rocking boats.
CANDICE:
Let's be on the rocky boat!
SHEILA:
This is also a story available in the teen version. This is Ivan. Ivan is an older teenager, he's seventeen. And he has a girlfriend, her name is Lin. So this is closer to the end of Ivan's chapter. Ivan is alone at home. He's gotten rid of his family for the evening:
He wishes Lin weren't working, that he could see her, spend some time alone with her.
She always smells like sweet fruit and candy, with an undertone of flowers. Her general irreverence drew his attention and still pleasantly surprises him; a steady base of kindness is what keeps his attention, as well as her constant affection.
The best feeling—the one he conjures when the world is closing in on him—is her arms locked around his waist and her face tucked against his neck. When he puts his arms around her, crossing them over her back, he feels masculine and invincible, even though he's only a few centimetres taller than her.
He can't depend on her words, though. Despite being always kind, she avoids committing, especially when pressed.
"What do you like about me?" he asked one evening as they watched Netflix in her parents' living room.
"Absolutely nothing," she replied, feeding him a piece of buttered popcorn with delicate fingertips. "You're a total waste of my time and energy, and I'm dumping you for the captain of the football team."
"The one with the acne?"
"That's the one."
Getting no words of comfort, he settles for craving the embraces she gives, lets himself receive the heat of her body.
In the golden evening light, the hunger is a taste on his tongue; an ache in his upper arms; a thin edge of tension in his inner thighs.
Five minutes in the bathroom won't be enough to satisfy this.
His brain is an animal. He can think of nothing else. With a grunt, he rolls off his bed and stumbles over to his desk
After staring at his browser's search bar for a moment, he types in "Asian girls", thinking about Lin's curtain of hair and slender hips, her collarbone jutting above the neckline of her blouse.
The images that pop up are mostly faces. There's nothing that appeals to him. He needs more.
He adds "body" to the search.
That's more like it.
He scans the options: big eyes and small mouth, sleeveless white shirts with the top buttons undone, hair up, hair down, seductive breasts.
Standing out in the sea of flesh tones, the primary colours of the outfit catch his eye, and a thrill runs through his body before he realises exactly what he's looking at.
It annoys him when these images slip through the filters. Once his brain sees it, it gets hooked by the idea and won't let it go. He can tell by the way his body reacted so quickly that a thousand Lins wouldn't be able to give him what he wants now.
He has made rules about this. If he can't get it out of his head, he limits himself to two images: the first is a chipped, flaking fresco from Pompeii; the second is Pagliei's Naiads from 1881.
He tells himself he should go into the living room and get the art books. His family thinks nothing of him looking at them—and he has the visual arts project as an excuse.
The online photo whispers to him.
The picture is an old one, the sort he's seen in his parents' family albums that document lives by milestones and annual celebrations.
The girl—six or seven years old—is standing in a bedroom. It's a normal child's bedroom, with brightly-coloured bedclothes and about a hundred stuffed animals. Outside the window is a dusting of snow on a bare tree, and there are white cut-paper snowflakes taped haphazardly to the windowpane. The girl is the focal point of the shot. She wears a Wonder Woman undershirt and underpants set, and has a large, shiny, red Christmas bow stuck to the top of her head. Her arms are crossed over her chest, and her right hip juts saucily towards the viewer, so a wedge of pristine flesh is visible above the bright blue waistband of the pants. Her head is turned: she glowers from behind a wedge of messy hair. Her tongue sticks out between her lips.
He inhales sharply.
...clicks on report, clicks the back button, returns to the safety of his browser's image search, and puts his hands on his thighs.
He reaches for his phone, and text Lynn, knowing she's still at work and won't even have a break for another 56 minutes.
Luv u
Then he opens up his app for his special chat room.
And we'll stop there.
CANDICE:
You said this is for teens, the teen version. How old is he?
SHEILA:
He's seventeen.
CANDICE:
He's seventeen, okay. And is Lin a same-aged female?
SHEILA:
Yes.
CANDICE:
So this is a teenager that is describing having an attraction to children, to female girls?
SHEILA:
Yes.
CANDICE:
Okay, okay.
SHEILA:
Yes, so this story comes from, I mean, any time you put a picture of your kid on the internet, what we think of as "Yeah, it's a kid in their pyjamas or whatever", it could be absolutely nothing, to somebody with a minor attraction, or it could be one of those things that people use to link to other offensive images. So, uh, one of the things that people told me was, you know, they see these things and even if it doesn't look that bad, they report it.
CANDICE:
And so he reported it in the story?
SHEILA:
Yes.
CANDICE:
Okay. So how does that story end?
SHEILA:
That was the end.
CANDICE:
Oh, that was the end, okay great. Okay great. And I'm just kinda processing through that.
SHEILA:
Mmm-hmm.
CANDICE:
So for those that are listening, here's what I want to be really clear on: Sheila and I are not promoting the viewing of child sexual exploitation material. We're not promoting the viewing of what's popularly known as child pornography, because what I think what happens Sheila is sometimes you're reading it, and people forget that this is fiction, it's fiction. People forget that you're telling a story that you've written based on doing your research and getting information, and that this is information based on, perhaps, a teenager's experience. Again, of which you've made into fiction, and so for those that are listening that might be like "What is being read on here? Is this, you know, are Sheila and Candice promoting the abuse of children?" No, we're talking about a story. And will you expand on that Sheila? Because again I think people do misunderstand a lot of times what we say.
SHEILA:
Yes. So the story is about perspective. What the parent sees as "Hey, look what my kid got for their birthday, or what my kid got for Christmas, or my kid looks so funny". If it's on the internet, first of all, somebody could look at it and think something other than "Your kid looks funny, or your kid looks cute". Secondly it can lead to connections that go to CSEM sites. So, many of the MAPs that I talked to, when they see something like that, they report it right away. They don't click on it, they don't follow any links to see if it leads to exploitation material. They just report it.
CANDICE:
I love that we're talking about that. I also want our global community to hear, and parents to hear, that what you think is innocent that you post on Facebook or Instagram about your kid in the bathtub, or you know, they're wearing their little superhero jammies, or they're in their underwear, please be aware of what you're posting. I think we all need to be mindful, because in this day in age, it is a social media -ridden culture, and people, there's a lot of influence. There's a lot that happens there. I'm not saying that it's 100% on parents to, you know, to be responsible consumers of the internet, but I do think everybody can play a part in that process. Anything else you want to say about that Sheila?
SHEILA:
Um, just that we have this global village. I mean, the concept of the global village has been around since the 1960's. We have airplanes, we have the internet now. If you believe that something you've put on the internet is yours and is private, I think you have misunderstood the global village.
CANDICE:
Agreed, and I would also say just think a lot of times, no matter what your intention is online, it could be misunderstood or misperceived. You know I saw something on Facebook, a mom was joking and said "Hey, my kids are for sale!" you know, they were being naughty or not listening, and I thought to myself, from the legal lens, you know, just, of the prevention lens, you should probably be careful about saying that. And I think you chuckle because you know what I'm saying. We're in the field that we're in, and this day in age, my goodness! Like, yikes, that can be misunderstood and misperceived.
SHEILA:
Mmm-hmm.
CANDICE:
So Sheila, thank you so much for being on our podcast today, for talking about your book, Past The Dark Field, everyone please know there are a lot of ways to access Sheila's book, that what stood out to me is Amazon, but we will also give you access to Sheila and how to contact her if you want more information. I know we have a, such a huge following that you will get a lot of responses Sheila. This is going to be a book that our, our world has access to and reads. And I just want to thank you for taking the time to give voice to the voiceless. So thank you so much for this, this wonderful piece of work that you did.
SHEILA:
Thank you so much for having me.
CANDICE:
You're so welcome. I wanna just say to everyone that's listening, we've got a lot going on here at the global prevention project, and you know, Sheila, I will talk to you offline, but we plan on being at the ATSA conference, that's the Association for the Treatment of Sexual Abuser conference in November.
I would love to talk with you about, you know, whether we want to get some books that we have at our table. Also wanna say to the global MAP community, the listeners of our podcast, we are in the process of creating a MAP mural where we want to hear your voice. So if you have quotes that you would like us to put on our mural that we can take to ATSA, please send me an email.
We want to give voice to the voiceless, so we also have a lot going on here. Go to our website, the global prevent project dot org to find out how we can support you in whatever process related to, whether it's MAPs, or you're a partner of a sex offender, or if you've got some risky sexual behaviour, you're legally involved, you're on the autism spectrum or a Parkinson's and it's moved into some problematic sexual behaviour, we are here for you, so with that, I wanna say thanks to everyone for listening, and until next time, have a good one.
Update: since recording this interview, Sheila is donating half of the proceeds from the book to a wider range of anti-contact support organisations, rather than just Prostasia.
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