| |
Evert and Candice discuss suicide prevention among MAPs and the differences between good treatment for MAPs and sex offender treatment. Candice: Welcome to the Prevention podcast. I am your host, Candice.
We have had this minor attracted person, non-offending pedophile name Evert on our podcast before, last year, and it was very well received.
Evert is a very articulate individual who gave us his thoughts and experiences about being a minor attracted person in a world that is very hateful and very judgmental.
And so I am very excited to have Evert back on to talk about some of the struggles and challenges that folks with minor attractions have in society and hopefully, as part of our discussion, we can discuss today, you know, what can be done to support individuals who have this attraction. So Evert, welcome back.
Evert: Yes thank you Candice. Happy to be here again.
Candice: Yeah! I love that you are here! I know that the last time we did your podcast, again, you were so articulate and had such well informed, educated responses that I think were so important for the community to hear. Because there is such a stigma around the term ‘‘pedophile’'. So with that, Evert, tell me what inspired you to come back on today.
Evert: Well, there are two reasons. First, you gave me a good platform to reach out to other people who have minor attraction, but also to other people who are interested. And the second part is that we see a lot of problems with minor attracted people, either getting into trouble or committing suicide. And it's all related to the lack of relationships or having problem with relationships. So I thought I have to talk about this item to get it known to the world.
Candice: I really appreciate that and, you know, we’ve been talking about that as well. There, recently especially, has been a lot of suicides among this population that sadly, I think, a lot of people who are ignorant would say ‘‘oh good!’’. But the reality is, to me anyway, it’s not necessary. And so, let’s perhaps start there, Evert. There are a lot of people who have minor attraction who end up dying by suicide. Tell me your thoughts on that.
Evert: Makes me cry.
Candice: Yeah…
Evert: It is so… What you say, it is not necessary. You could get help. I lived with that for about more or fifty years, so many others do. So it is not necessary to get out of that… yeah… using that way. It’s completely useless and sad… very sad.
Candice: Evert, it sounds like you have felt suicidal before in your life.
Evert: I am now known to a group of pedophile in the Netherlands for five years and I know nine people who killed themselves in this five years.
Candice: Wow… ok. Yeah.
Evert: And that’s people you know close…
Candice: Well… yeah. Yeah, that is… a lot! That is a lot.
Evert: Yes.
Candice: What, Evert, being someone who is minor attracted who has felt suicidal as well, who has lost a lot of people close to you to suicide, what can you tell the listeners who are perhaps other pedophiles, even those who are teenagers who have attractions to younger children who are feeling like they want to die… What is something you could tell them?
Evert: We don’t have to die. You could live with it. Many people will live with minor attraction without getting into problems with justice, or having a normal beneficial life, beneficial to society. Even beneficial to children because we work with children. So it is absolutely wrong to think that there is no hope and that the only way out is to end your life. And I know that a lot of young people see this long life without any hope and they… they… yeah, they get helpless.
Candice: Well, I think there is so many issues that as a clinician I can think of. Someone with an attraction that the world says, you know, ‘‘you have an attraction which means it’s only a matter of time before you sexually offend, you know. You are hated. Die. There is a stigma, you can’t tell people’’, to me it’s like I can see how someone would feel like the odds are so incredibly stacked against them, especially someone who is younger and doesn’t have a lot of life experience, why they would feel like there wasn’t any hope. And so, Evert, I think we have an opportunity here for you to say to those people who feel like, you know, ‘‘I’m not going to be able to have a relationship or I am going to be alone or society hates me’’, I think it would be very helpful to hear from you a message of hope. You know, specifically: do the individuals who are listening who say ‘‘I am a pedophile, there is no hope, I am a minor attracted person’’, can they have relationships? I am not saying with children. I am not saying with minors but with adult per say, or find fulfillment, even if their attraction is not to an adult.
Evert: Yes, you already said things which are true. But first, I have to go back to the point where we started about the hate and the hopelessness. It seams that the hate and the hopelessness comes from society. But I think that maybe, when you are a young person and you don’t have already accepted yourself as a pedophile, the biggest hate and biggest problems are within yourself. And that makes it almost really hopeless, feeling so close that it is so intense that you have to fight yourself and that makes it very difficult. So I’ve want to speak out to all those people who really think that there is no possible life with you having no relationship with a child. Because it is impossible, both logically and by society. But there are relationships that are possible which are the normal relationships many people have. Like your family, your friends, the work you can do, you have maybe neighbors, or you work in the sports or clubs. Even you can help society, support society. And you can have a life which is very fulfilling by doing so, having people you relate to, which you can enjoy. And even see children or even work with children in a safe way because there are always people around. So there is hope and it is very important that people start to see that if you fall into the trap that many pedophile feel of self hate, that you will retract out of shame, that you retract out of society. And that you actually close down and cancel for yourself to become happy. And many people do so and become lonely and they get uneasy having a life with discontent about how things go. They blame society while actually the person you must blame the most is yourself. It is yourself who you are denying possibility to be part of the society and live a good life.
Candice: Well, I think, I can definitely hear that. I think that there is hate that starts from within. I think we heard from a lot of pedophiles on the podcast as well as in our program who talk about experiencing such confusion when they are young, teenagers, and at first feeling like ‘‘Ok, wait a minute, you know, is this a phase? As I am getting older, I am still attracted to these younger kids. Does this means, if it’s same sex, does this means I am gay? Or a lesbian?’’ And as they get older, they’re realizing ‘‘oh, wait a minute, you know, I actually am a pedophile’’ and so then the hate really kicks in like you talked about, and so much confusion especially with ‘‘Who can I talk to? What do I do with this? It feels like this big secret’’. And so I agree with you that there’s definitely - and a lot of other minor attracted person assured this, that there is a lot of inner self hatred. I want… I really want to be sensitive to those people listening that I don’t want folks feel like Evert, that you are saying, you know, ‘‘The person to blame is yourself’’ if you feel like you are denying yourself a part of life by engaging with friends and having those relationships. What I want folks to hear is ‘‘You got some choices and there is hope’’. It may not feel like there is hope, but there actually is hope. And Evert, you are saying ‘‘Gosh, I’ve lived with this for decades now, you know, I am an older adult and if I can get through it, I promise you that you can get through it.’’ Is that what I am hearing you say?
Evert: Indeed
Candice: Great!
Evert: And it is not that I want to blame persons but certainly when it comes to the matter that we were talking about, people with suicidal thoughts often because they blame society. I’ve seen that a very caring and soothing approach works. Actually, you have to say ‘‘Come on, you’re a big guy, fight for yourself, make a life and don’t blame society’’ just do it yourself and get out of this loneliness and these feelings of… yes… mostly shame but also feelings of… They don’t like their own fantasies they have which are, in a way, perfectly normal. So, they have to get some help from society, but they have to do themselves most of the work. Because you don’t get through if you don’t do the work.
Candice: Well I think shame absolutely plays a huge role in this and I think it does keep a lot of people in the shadows and hidden from society. I think that hatred from society also does that. I think it’s admirable that you have such a strong determination to have, and that you created a life for yourself. I remember your story and your coming out process and, really, you’ve lived with this for a long time and, so, I think it’s admirable that you are able to say, you know, you fight for you life, right? You fight for it. I do know there are younger individuals, and there are also individuals who are older, some of whom I know just through our twitter connexion that are pedophiles who have recently tried, you know, attempted to die by suicide and, so, I do think there’s still is a lot of depression. I think there is a lot of feeling of isolation, loneliness. I think there’s a lot of mental health issues that folks are dealing with that they don’t feel they can come forward and get support because of their attractions. And, so, I do want to say, Evert, that, you know, you were talking about relationships. You can have friends, family, neighbors who you can connect with. I also want people to hear: they are online communities. We have a group. There’s VirPed, B4Uact, there’s different apps, communities that are out there. There’s a lot —
Evert: There’s chat rooms.
Candice: — chat rooms, yeah! And there’s a lot of support that way for folks. So if you feel like ‘‘Hey, I can’t tell my neighbors, I don’t feel confortable talking to my…, or having a connexion, a relationship with those other people’’, you can actually have these online friendships, if you will, and peer support with other minor attracted persons.
Evert: Yes. And when I talk about relationship, I don’t say ‘‘You have to say you’re a pedophile’’. No! You only have to say it when there are situations in which you feel yourself becoming a danger. If I would work with children or in a position to be in the presence of children, there is no problem. But if I would feel myself uncomfortable because you feel a certain different attraction towards the children, then I would go to the person and say ‘‘Well please, help me. I’m getting a bit into problems now, so take over.’’ And that is what society should allow, that pedophiles would be normal working persons and give also an alarm or a signal when they come into trouble.
Candice: We know, I think, just like if someone were to say ‘‘I have an attraction or fantasies about raping a woman, you know, and so I am really struggling to be around women in the workplace because I would like to sexually assault my co-worker, you know, when she goes to the bathroom’’, yeah, I think in an ideal world, wouldn’t be nice if everyone could feel or be that self aware and we have a society that would be that open to hearing everyone say ‘‘This is what is going on in my head’’…‘‘It’s kind of loaded what you shared so I am going to do my best to respond’’. The reality is, number one, that we don’t have a society that’s open to that. We have a very reactive society rather than a proactive, preventative, prevention based society that says ‘‘Let’s talk about this before it happens. Let’s educate the world before it happens’’. We have a very reactive society.
I also think that, individuals who identify as having attractions to minor, anyone under the age of 18, especially pedophiles, if we think about it, I think for those of you that have committed in your lives to never harming a child ever, you being self aware, you getting the support you need to continue to have the life that you want while insuring that your attractions are manage and that you live a relatively normal life, that, you know, hat’s off to you for managing that. Because that is really your responsibility which we know so many individuals who identify as pedophiles, hebophiles, ephebophiles, who will say ‘‘I have a commitment to never do this and I also need help for my mental health issues, you know. I am depressed, anxious’’ and so on and so forth. And, so, that is really important, Evert, for folks to know ‘‘Gosh, I gotta keep this in check and I gotta be aware of where I work and if I’m around children, especially if I don’t feel safe with my attraction’’. So it’s definitely dicey what we are talking about and I’m dissecting what you just said a little bit because the global community / a lot of ignorant people who listen might take it and run with it that you are saying ‘‘Yeah, pedophile should be around kids and work with them and if they have a problem, they can just go up to their co-worker or their boss and say ‘‘Hey, I’m having a bad day where I am having attraction to a child, I want to touch them and so I probably should go home for the day’’.’’
I want to make sure that the global community hears that we are actually not saying that.
Thoughts on that Evert? It’s loaded, that’s a loaded conversation!
Evert: Yes, pity. Because they talk about prevention and about risk and when it comes to the points of taking precautionary actions… If you want to be really looking at risks, then they look away and only think ‘‘We take zero risks’’ and we throw everything away. We build a big wall and we incarcerated everything because we don’t want to talk about prevention and risk. We just want to annihilate it. That’s indeed the approach about risks, I know! But it isn’t working. I am sure! The biggest problem these people do, by the way you talk about it, it’s getting people outside of society, making them lonely, making them the discontent about society, and making them even hateful about society. And even making these people into a position where they can cause harm because they are not mentally stable, they are not self controlling, they are not strong, they are not aware about their feelings, and then things go wrong. And I can’t, with any normal reason and logic, not understand that this society keeps on going to a medicine that doesn’t work! We need prevention, we need to control each other.
Candice: Well, what I want to say is that we actually work with a lot of individuals who do a very good job of being aware of their attractions and their commitment of never hurting a child. And in my world, I don’t believe in incarcerating people for an attraction. I think that it’s a bunch of bullshit. In my world —
Evert: That’s true
Candice: — I think there are rapist walking around who have rape and never been caught or incarcerated. Those individuals, yeah, they should absolutely be caught and incarcerated. There’re individuals who have rape fantasies, who their fantasies are… they run really deep and they would never act on them, you know. And, so in my world, I would provide treatment for those individuals who have fantasies that are like that, rather than just saying ‘‘Oh, you have a fantasy about that, you are absolutely going to act on it so we’re gonna go ahead and throw you in the slammer and lock away the key and you’ll never get out.’’ That not going to actually do anything for our society. And same with individuals who says ‘‘I have an attraction to a child. I have no desire to harm that child, at all, whatsoever. But, based on what society is, and the stigma, and me not feeling like I can tell my family or my partner because I am scared that they will leave me and I am scared my family will reject me. I feel depressed, and I fell alone and isolated so Candice, I need some support with that. I need help.’’ And so my responses is I’m going to do that. I’m happy to provide you a support. Or someone that says ‘‘I’m suicidal because I feel like, you know, I hate who I am and then I feel so alone’’, I am going to help them. I am going to provide treatment services, outreach services, to make sure they have help and the quality of life that they deserve. Because in my world, attraction doesn’t mean action. And so what I want to be clear on is that I don’t think the way the world thinks. As a survivor of trauma, I actually don’t think the way society thinks. Many trauma survivor would say ‘‘Kill pedophiles’’. I don’t actually think that. I think what needs to happen is folks who actually sexually abuse children, they are deserving of facing the reality of whatever happens: Law enforcement, incarceration, treatment, if they are admissible to treatment, and if not, yeah, if it serves them to be incarcerated for the rest of their life because they are a danger to society because they have sexually abused children, ok! But attraction doesn’t mean action in my world.
Evert: You are true about that. But, in a way, society must understand that by putting people out of society and don’t give them help, there’s still a big problem. We get always told ‘‘Get help! Get help’’. Well I’m trying to get organized help. We trying to get the good help for people with our attractions because, in a way, there is a lot of help in this world. But, if it comes to pedophiles, then this help, in a way, vaporizes. Or you get a help you don’t need. Actually, now, this year we have conversation with authorities who are trying to understand that sending people with minor attraction to forensic help doesn’t work because they don’t have the treatment for pedophiles. They use the simple treatment for all incarcerated.
Candice: Correct!
Evert: And if you don’t adapt your treatment to the persons itself, then it won’t work. And we have seen this so much. If people have eleven years of treatment get out of… into society and within a month, they go wrong again. That makes me feel so uncomfortable because it is not good for the children on the street because they are at risk, but also the person itself is at risk. Because he didn’t receive any real help.
Candice: Well, they didn’t receive accurate treatment, nor did she or the non-binary or the trans person that has a minor attraction. So I agree with you 100% Evert. I think that now what researchers are doing, and I know Jill Levenson and other researchers are looking into this, Dr Walker is looking into this, and other researchers, Ian Mcphail is looking into this, or so many/ Guillian Thenburg… Hat’s off to those individuals who are doing research on minor attracted persons to look at what is the accurate support and treatment we can provide to minor attracted persons. And what I will say as someone who has blaze a trail in the united states for offering accurate treatment to MAPs is that minor attracted person who has never harmed a child should never ever be put in the same treatment program as a sex offender, ever. Their needs are different. They should not be put in the same / We keep / Our MAPs groups are very separate from our other prevention groups, very separate. Because the other prevention group that we have involve individuals who are legally involved… So they have pending cases or they have been adjudicated in order to be in our programs for that. And it’s very specific to what they need based on their criminogenic features. A MAP who has never offended, they’re in a different treatment program. And so thank you for bringing that up. I agree with you.
Evert: So these MAPs who never offended can still have in their lives moments where, yeah, life is a little bit harsh on you. And then I see that they retract out of society. They go into substance abuse and other problems, and then we need to start help and that should be available actually, because if you don’t help, these people will fall into a situation where they can become a treat.
Candice: Well, I wanna challenge that a little bit because I think that falls in line with if we don’t provide help, they’re inevitably going to do something and I know a lot of MAPs now, because that has become our niche over the last year, truly, where there’re a lot of men, women, non-binary and trans individuals who are absolutely committed to never harming a child. What it puts them at risks for, however, is further experience of depression, isolation, anxiety, loneliness. That can be a threat to them as a result, you know. That’s where we are seeing higher number of individuals who are dying by suicide. So I wanted to be very cautious in saying ‘‘Yeah, they become a threat or a risk if they don’t get proper mental help support’’ because I don’t actually agree with that. I think there are some who, yeah, are at risk, and they know that. They are coming to us and acknowledging, like ‘‘I need help. I am worried that I am going to do something’’. OK, yeah. We are going to help you. There’re a lot of people though that says ‘‘I have an attraction. I am absolutely against and committed in never harming. Can you help me with my depression?’’. Yeah, I can help you with your depression.
Evert: True. If you help these people then they can keep their own vows of never to harm children. They can uphold it. But I have myself been in the same position for a very short period of mental disturbance because I hated myself so much and I had no one to talk to, I had no one that could help. I couldn’t find on Internet or wherever to get help. And I felt really, I felt myself to become in a situation in which my self control was so low that I didn’t trust myself. I don’t say that these people always become a risk. But I know from personal experience that if you come into such a situation, it can indeed go two sides. Either you end your own life, or you hurt another. And that is what we really should understand, that we really need to be ready to recognize people who get into problems and actively help them.
Candice: I appreciate you saying that too, from your own personal experience. And that’s where we are wanting folks that are listening to hear that there is a lot of support out there. There’s a lot of free support, there’s peer support… We have a very affordable web-based, actually two web-based groups, that we’ve started for folks to call in to every single week. There’s a lot of chats that are, believe it or not, I know there’s a lot of people saying ‘‘oh! If you have a bunch of pedophiles on a peer support, you know, call or whatever, they’re going to be promoting sexually abusing children’’, that’s not true! But what it does that you just spoke to, instead of being isolated in your own head and having thoughts swirl around, some of which may be risky or dangerous, is you have the support. Whether it’s a clinician, such as ourselves at the Prevention Project, or other peers who can say ‘‘Okay, let’s come back to reality of why you absolutely should not harm a child’’.
Evert: Indeed, and that is also why we are opening in society, on twitter and other social media, to show that we are here. So that people who are in these programs… I myself didn’t find any of these peer groups at that moment. And I even didn’t find other forensic or other psychological help. So, it is important to be active and be seen in the internet. And if people say we are normalizing it, pedophilia will never be normal. And what is normal? That is also a discussion we can find. We don’t want to be part of LGBT. We don’t want to be having pedophilia normalize. The only thing we want is be seen for peers and other people, the children, we are not the risk you think. And speak to us if you have questions.
Candice: When I think if people have questions if they would take the time and read the research, it spells it out there. I mean, we know there’s a large majority of individuals who sexually offends against children and they are not actually pedophiles. But we do have a society, and I think the media, you know,… I love Luke Malone. I think he has blazed a trail really looking at truth in regard to pedophilia with his ground breaking article and podcast that he did. Thankfully he is out there speaking about the reality of pedophilia but we do have a global society that hears the word ‘‘pedophile’' whenever there’s any sort of sexual abuse of anyone. I mean, it could be a man sexual assaults a nineteen years old male, and he is a pedophile. Which is not even accurate! It’s like, what are you… Unless the body type of the nineteen years old is like a 6 years old. I mean, it’s just… But we have a society, again, that really has gone crazy with the term ‘‘pedophile’' and so… Look at the research, right? Let’s look at the research.
I also want to talk about the term ‘‘normal’’. You know, last year, we had our death threats and so on and so forth, and trolls coming at us, you know, saying that I was trying to normalize pedophilia. Here’s what I am trying to normalize - The conversation around pedophilia, the conversation around MAPs. Right? Because the reality is, if we’re going to talk about rapist, we’re going to talk about the LGBT community and we’re going to talk about teens and we’re going to talk about rainbows and we’re going to talk about unicorns and we’re going to talk about kittens… Let’s talk about everything, shall we folks? I mean, let’s have a conversation that becomes so normalize that it’s not this, you know, this dark cave in society where there’s a group of people called pedophiles living in the cave. You know? These are individuals who are human beings, who are men, women, teenagers, believe it or not, non-binary, trans individuals who have an attraction. They have an attraction. Many, most, all, have said ‘‘I knew I had an attraction between 14 and 16 years old, 13 and 17 years old’’. But Evert, I love that you get me all railed up because this is a conversation that needs to be had. You and I are not—
Evert: Absolutely
Candice: —we are not trying to normalize pedophilia but what we are definitely normalizing it’s the conversation, right?
Evert: Right. It should be open.
Candice: Well I think it’s opening up. I mean, you and I, Evert, are passionate folks that clearly are going to make ourselves heard, aren’t we? *chuckles* I mean, this podcast will air. The global community is going to hear it. And I really appreciate it. Because this is… it’s dicey, it’s controversial, but you know what? So is other stuff in society, right?
Evert: Yes, you can talk about all kinds of controversial items.
Candice: Yeah!
Evert: Like politics. *chuckles*
Candice: Exactly! Let’s not talk about that, shall we? Let’s talk about rainbows, unicorns and kittens before we talk about politics.
So Evert, it’s always a pleasure to have you on. I think you have such a… controversial thoughts but I love them. I think it’s necessary.
Any final words for those listeners? Because we have… I mean, we literally are on every continent. Podcast has been dowloaded on almost fifty country. What do you want to say to this global community that’s listening? Any final words?
Evert: What I think people should first look at themselves before they look at us. And if you look to yourself, understand that you are a good person and maybe you might feel not but just keep believing in yourself. I think that that is the… believe in the future, believe in even other people. It’s better to trust other people than hate them.
Candice: And I so wish that that was easy. And I know that that’s easier said than done and so, what I want to say to those of you who are listening, whether you are a pedophile, a hebophile, a ephebophile, any type of ‘‘phile’', a therapist, a researcher, a community member… There’s hope. If you need support, you can reach out to me directly. Everyone knows how to get a hold of me at this time. There’s so much support out there. If you need support in how to treat individuals who are seeing as clients, I have a lot of clinicians who listen to this podcast. Thank you. I am here for you. Those who have minor attractions, thank you for listening, we are here for you. Reach out to us. Researchers, thank you for doing the research. And I know it’s hard to trust, because I talk to a lot of MAPs who say ‘‘How am I supposed to trust? This is what’s happened to me in the past’’ I get it. If you want to email me, you’ll see that I am trustworthy. And hat’s off to you for being brave because it is scary. And so, you know, I think, Evert, there’s going to be some people that agree with what you are saying and some people who don’t and that’s ok. I think we both gave a well rounded picture today and… you know, I think we do this again, Evert, in the next couple of months and check in because I love having you on. And until then, I just want to say thanks, Evert. Thanks for coming back on.
Evert: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to do so.
Candice: Yeah! Sure! Let’s check in in the fall. Sounds good?
Evert: Thank you.
Candice: Thank you!
Evert: Bye
Candice: Thanks everybody, thanks for listening and until next time.
| |
